# "Revolt Of The Rich" Article In The New American Conservative... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491 "2012-09-02T22:58:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/61 "2012-09-04T02:23:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Tariffs don’t help consumers. They help uncompetitive companies. Good point. That is why the United States was an industrial backwater before the imposition of free trade policies. Really, most community colleges offer survey courses in American history. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/62 "2012-09-04T02:39:29Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > But why not produce those things here? Why outsource? Obviously the answer is cheap labor. Why can’t an American company produce things for Wal-Mart that China does? Who benefits from this in the end? Part of the reason is that you have to be able to sell your products everywhere, not just the US. Even if Americans were willing to pay more for American made products (which they aren’t, btw) why would Canadians or Germans be willing to do so? Paul: Do you mean a course that discusses [these](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act)? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/63 "2012-09-04T02:49:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If I hold a stock for 10 years and then sell it, I should only pay tax on the gain after being adjusted for inflation. Anything held for a year or under, which includes wages, is taxed irrespective of inflation. > > If you want to index everything for inflation, that’s fine with me. But it becomes very complicated, and as long as inflation is low, it doesn’t make that much difference. At the risk of creating a tangent, WHY should taxes on capital gains be adjusted for inflation? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/64 "2012-09-04T02:59:08Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Based on what? The income gap has been widening for at least 40 years now. You’re telling me you think that the wealthy are MORE involved with and directly connected to the middle class and poor NOW than THEN? Not less. > [@](#): > > Maybe you’re right, but…what’s the evidence? The larger the income gap gets, the less people at the extremes have in common…so why would they mix MORE? Only if you assume that income gap correlates with non-mixing. Do you have any evidence of that? Seriously - do you think that Rockefellers and Rothchilds of yesteryears mixed MORE with the “regular people” than the rich do now? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/65 "2012-09-04T03:26:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not less. > Only if you assume that income gap correlates with non-mixing. Do you have any evidence of that? > > Seriously - do you think that Rockefellers and Rothchilds of yesteryears mixed MORE with the “regular people” than the rich do now? No, because they were extreme examples of wealth disparity. You’re kinda proving your opponent’s point… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/66 "2012-09-04T03:27:45Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > No, because they were extreme examples of wealth disparity. You’re kinda proving your opponent’s point… Huh? My “opponent”'s point is that the oligarchs of yesteryear apparently mixed with people more than the current ones. Do you agree? I don’t. It is not the “income gap” that determines income, it is the prevalent culture that is much more egalitarian today than before. I played poker sitting back to back with Bill Gates once. Was he “mixing” at the time? Do you think an equivalent situation could have been possible 50 years prior with the billionaires of then and regular people? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/67 "2012-09-04T03:37:37Z")
Re-edit/fix: Huh? My “opponent”'s point is that the oligarchs of yesteryear apparently mixed with people more than the current ones. Do you agree? I don’t. It is not the “wealth disparity” quantity that determines mixing, it is the prevalent culture that is much more egalitarian today than before. I played poker sitting back to back with Bill Gates once. Was he “mixing” at the time? Do you think an equivalent situation could have been possible 50 years prior with the billionaires of then and regular people? Do you think that if that billionaire is suddenly worth “only” 500M, his community becomes less “gated” and the schools he sends his kids to are less “private”? Past a certain point the “wealth disparity” is completely irrelevant to the “mixing” question. Do you think the class separation in two examples below is different? 1. A $50K/year worker bee and a $500M-worth guy vs 2. A $200K/year worker bee and a $200M-worth guy after all, the “wealth disparity” in example one is 10 times that in example 2. Do you think it makes a difference? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/68 "2012-09-04T06:20:39Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > But why not produce those things here? Why outsource? Obviously the answer is cheap labor. Why can’t an American company produce things for Wal-Mart that China does? Who benefits from this in the end? Everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/69 "2012-09-04T07:30:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, his point is (I think, correct me if I’m wrong) that this class is MORE self-perpetuating than before, that the gated communities are MORE exclusive than before and private schools are MORE exclusive than before, and access to education, capital and other resources is harder to get for non-members of the class than before. > > Of course, he doesn’t give any data to support this point, and I think it’s bunk. I think that the gated communities and private schools are just trappings of wealth and don’t really get to the core of the issue at hand. In the debate about raising taxes on the rich, I’ve heard some people say that we can’t do it, because those people have the means to leave the country and go someplace where the rates are more favorable, and so it would be counterproductive. And this is presented as simply the rational course of action for such people to take. No one questions whether it will happen. It’s just assumed that they will, and should, maximize their rate of return. To me, that’s how the rich are seceding from America, and not even those that actually leave. The culture is such now that they seem to be regarded as a different class of citizen. For anybody else, we honor them when they make personal sacrifices or take risks for the interests of others. Lots of people do things over-and-above just working a job and paying their taxes. We pick up trash, or help build playgrounds, or have a bake sale for new band uniforms for the local school. And there is a certain societal pressure that expects these things of us. The ultimate examples are members of the military. How many times have we heard someone thank them for their service? They risk their lives, and it’s not for money. But rich people have created a different set of expectations for themselves. They don’t serve in the military. When a tax increase is proposed, it’s assumed that they’ll just leave. Some people will die for America, and some will sell it out for a few percentage points of their income. _And no one questions it._ That’s how the rich have seceded from the country. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/70 "2012-09-04T08:10:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > To me, that’s how the rich are seceding from America, and not even those that actually leave. The culture is such now that they seem to be regarded as a different class of citizen. For anybody else, we honor them when they make personal sacrifices or take risks for the interests of others. Lots of people do things over-and-above just working a job and paying their taxes. We pick up trash, or help build playgrounds, or have a bake sale for new band uniforms for the local school. And there is a certain societal pressure that expects these things of us. The ultimate examples are members of the military. How many times have we heard someone thank them for their service? They risk their lives, and it’s not for money. Lessee… Romney in the last two years gave $7M to charity. Let’s subtract that 10% Mormon tithe from that - it’s still $3M. How many new band uniforms for the local school can you buy for that and how many playgrounds can you build with that? You say you were not singling Romney personally? Ok - [this article](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/President/2012/0124/Mitt-Romney-taxes-show-very-high-charitable-giving-tied-to-Mormon-church) says that “people who made $10 million or more typically gave 6.5 percent to charity, according to Roberton Williams of the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center in Washington.”. So - that’s more than $650K yearly in charitable contributions from those evil rich, per person, on the average. In your opinion, is that “over-and-above just working a job and paying their taxes”? Is that “seceding from their country”? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/71 "2012-09-04T08:30:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So - that’s more than $650K yearly in charitable contributions from those evil rich, per person, on the average. In your opinion, is that “over-and-above just working a job and paying their taxes”? Is that “seceding from their country”? Good for them. And I never said the rich were evil. I just think that there’s a cultural and political shift such that the expectations from them are different. Some rich people give away fortunes for philanthropic reasons, and I applaud them for it. Some might well renounce their citizenship if it meant they could save a few percent in taxes somewhere else. And many people, rich or not, seem content to accept that second group, and to not question that they would put their self interest ahead of their patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/72 "2012-09-04T12:30:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Got any data to back that up? > > Government policies don’t outsource jobs. Mixchael Moore’s first book, _Outsource This!_ describes how the government offered a lot of help to businesses relocating outside the US. He devoted a chapter about “Outsourcing the US Government” to his interactions with US Government officials who offered their help in obtaining and filling out the proper forms for moving his “business” (he never told them he was theoretically moving the government out of the borders) outside the country. Sounds close enough to Government Policy for government work. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/73 "2012-09-04T12:35:14Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Mixchael Moore’s first book, _Outsource This!_ describes how the government offered a lot of help to businesses relocating outside the US. He devoted a chapter about “Outsourcing the US Government” to his interactions with US Government officials who offered their help in obtaining and filling out the proper forms for moving his “business” (he never told them he was theoretically moving the government out of the borders) outside the country. > Sounds close enough to Government Policy for government work. Eh office working officials are generally prefered to be at least somewhat helpful, do you really want the guy that handles paperwork pushing an agenda? If there is an office that handles government paperwork for moving a business to a foreign country, you can’t fault the office workers for telling you how to fill out the paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/74 "2012-09-04T12:50:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Everyone involved. ESPECIALLY the Americans who can’t get jobs or raises because their jobs have been outsourced. THEY get the benefit of … what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/75 "2012-09-04T12:56:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Lessee… Romney in the last two years gave $7M to charity. Let’s subtract that 10% Mormon tithe from that - it’s still $3M. How many new band uniforms for the local school can you buy for that and how many playgrounds can you build with that? > > You say you were not singling Romney personally? Ok - [this article](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/President/2012/0124/Mitt-Romney-taxes-show-very-high-charitable-giving-tied-to-Mormon-church) says that “people who made $10 million or more typically gave 6.5 percent to charity, according to Roberton Williams of the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center in Washington.”. > > So - that’s more than $650K yearly in charitable contributions from those evil rich, per person, on the average. In your opinion, is that “over-and-above just working a job and paying their taxes”? Is that “seceding from their country”? Charitable giving = tax loophole. And your response does not really answer the issue raised: these charitable givers are ASSUMED to be ready to flee the US with their (mostly) ill gotten gains if taxes get too high. NOT the actions of patriots, hoss. Au contraire! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/76 "2012-09-04T13:31:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did Henry Ford’s workers get better pay and benefits than auto workers do today? I’m guessing you already knew that average wages have risen dramatically since 1914, whether in real or nominal terms. But perhaps it would be more charitable to assume you didn’t know that, as otherwise your comment is, at best, silly. I’ve no idea whether or not you knew that in 1914 Henry Ford paid his workers more than twice what his competitors did. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/77 "2012-09-04T14:18:58Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > ESPECIALLY the Americans who can’t get jobs or raises because their jobs have been outsourced. THEY get the benefit of … what, exactly? I suppose the question is why do you think those particular people deserve those jobs or raises and who should be obligated to provide them? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/78 "2012-09-04T14:20:24Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Charitable giving = tax loophole. And your response does not really answer the issue raised: these charitable givers are ASSUMED to be ready to flee the US with their (mostly) ill gotten gains if taxes get too high. NOT the actions of patriots, hoss. Au contraire! Ah so you blame them for what is “ASSUMED” about them? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/79 "2012-09-04T14:44:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah so you blame them for what is “ASSUMED” about them? By their conservative defenders, yes. It’s they who typically raise that spectre. Has happened on this very board, several times. I personally think the rich ARE divorced from the rest of US society, but that they would need a LOT of encouragement to jump ship … a slightly higher tax rate would not do it. I just want someone to answer that charge: if the rich are ready to jump ship if taxes are raised by a few percentage points, how invested can they be in US society? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/80 "2012-09-04T14:47:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m guessing you already knew that average wages have risen dramatically since 1914, whether in real or nominal terms. But perhaps it would be more charitable to assume you didn’t know that, as otherwise your comment is, at best, silly. > > I’ve no idea whether or not you knew that in 1914 Henry Ford paid his workers more than twice what his competitors did. Nothing silly about it. The claim was made that Ford treated his workers in a good way and employers today don’t.. If, as you claim, workers are treated better today, then that claim is false. Whether Ford paid his workers twice what his competitors paid is irrelevant. It only argues that his competitors got it wrong and that Ford, and auto companies today, have got it right. But you are certainly free to follow your own business plan if you like. Sounds like it would be something like this: 1. Open factory. 2. Pay workers twice the going rate. 3. Profit! Let us know how that works out for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491.md?page=5)