# "Revolt Of The Rich" Article In The New American Conservative... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491 "2012-09-02T22:58:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/81 "2012-09-04T15:30:23Z")
There was nothing charitable about Ford’s move, it was shrewd. He hired the very best, and most skilled. And he used them just as ruthlessly as any of his competitors. He also assumed the right to monitor his worker’s off-duty hours for any sign of drunkenness, or worse, union sympathy. His employees were expected to attend church. Synagogues did not qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/82 "2012-09-04T15:54:28Z")
It’s not merely the ultra-rich that embrace this post-national identity. There’s a whole class of people for whom the nation state is at best a slightly embarrassing old-fashioned relic to be ignored and abolished as quickly as possible. Globetrotting directors and managers of various NGOs and international organisations come to mind. I was especially amused when Christine Lagarde director of IMF lambasted the Greeks for not paying taxes, when it turned out she didn’t either. While their perks and income makes them members of privileged classes, they’re not in the ultra-rich category. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/83 "2012-09-04T17:46:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah so you blame them for what is “ASSUMED” about them? If you don’t want us to blame them, stop assuming that they’ll flee at the first sign of higher taxes. Its conservatives who say the rich will leave if they are not coddled to, so blame yourself :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/84 "2012-09-04T17:52:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There was nothing charitable about Ford’s move, it was shrewd. He hired the very best, and most skilled. Essentially, he made the business decision that the higher pay scale cost him less than a lower-skilled or unreliable workforce, plus all the hiring and training costs and reduced productivity that a high turnover rate had been costing him. The PR benefits weren’t bad, either. Too many companies today aren’t nearly that smart. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/85 "2012-09-04T17:57:12Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If you don’t want us to blame them, stop assuming that they’ll flee at the first sign of higher taxes. Its conservatives who say the rich will leave if they are not coddled to, so blame yourself :dubious: People tend to get away from oppressive/failing regimes. Here - take a look at [a corner of the socialist paradise of EU](http://www.cnbc.com/id/48889555): those are not the “rich” leaving. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/86 "2012-09-04T18:10:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > People tend to get away from oppressive/failing regimes. Here - take a look at [a corner of the socialist paradise of EU](http://www.cnbc.com/id/48889555): those are not the “rich” leaving. These are people escaping a failing economy, not higher taxes. One might argue had the Spainish government reduced public debt with higher taxes, they could have prevented the financial crisis and avoided the mass exodus of capital. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/87 "2012-09-04T18:23:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > These are people escaping a failing economy, not higher taxes. One might argue had the Spainish government reduced public debt with higher taxes, they could have prevented the financial crisis and avoided the mass exodus of capital. Yes, cuz about 45% for someone earning $70K/year plus 21% VAT is just not enough. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/88 "2012-09-04T18:31:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course, he doesn’t give any data to support this point, and I think it’s bunk. Of course it’s bunk. All it takes is knowing one “self-made man” and the whole argument falls apart. Even the wage gap argument is hard to take seriously and the rich folk of today are WAY richer than the rich folk of yesteryear. BUT! The plebs are still able to afford a lot of toys and luxuries that plebs in the 1910s could only dream about. I’ve love to see how the wage gap looks when you factor in the increased amount of luxuries available today and you pull out the megarich like Gates, Buffet and their ilk. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/89 "2012-09-04T18:48:29Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > you pull out the megarich like Gates, Buffet and their ilk. You’re only allowed to pull out the ones who take sugar in their porridge. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/90 "2012-09-04T19:45:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, cuz about 45% for someone earning $70K/year plus 21% VAT is just not enough. I’m not familiar with Spains tax structure. But based on your link, it didn’t appear that those rich and upper middle class people were fleeing taxes. They were fleeing the devaluation of their wealth if Spain were to drop out of the EU. I’m not sure how “the rich should pay their fair share as part of a progressive tax structure and sound fiscal policies” got twisted into “taxing the rich will make them take all their job creating wealth out of the country”. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Of course it’s bunk. All it takes is knowing one “self-made man” and the whole argument falls apart. Even the wage gap argument is hard to take seriously and the rich folk of today are WAY richer than the rich folk of yesteryear. Isn’t that the point? The rich folk today are much richer than the rich folk of yesteryear while poor folk is still poor? One big difference is that the rich of yesteryear made much of their wealth in infrastructure-related industries like railroads, shipping, oil and steel. Their wealth was tied to physical products that tended to be geographically located near their customers and natural resources. As opposed to getting rich from hedge funds and exotic derivative schemes. IMHO, a perfect metaphor for the evolution of the American economy is the conversion of the defunct Bethlehem Steel plant in Pennsylvania to the Bethlehem Sands Casino. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’ve love to see how the wage gap looks when you factor in the increased amount of luxuries available today and you pull out the megarich like Gates, Buffet and their ilk. You know a lot of people actually can’t afford to buy iPads and HDTVs. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/91 "2012-09-04T20:46:45Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > It’s not merely the ultra-rich that embrace this post-national identity. There’s a whole class of people for whom the nation state is at best a slightly embarrassing old-fashioned relic to be ignored and abolished as quickly as possible. Globetrotting directors and managers of various NGOs and international organisations come to mind. I was especially amused when Christine Lagarde director of IMF lambasted the Greeks for not paying taxes, when it turned out she didn’t either. While their perks and income makes them members of privileged classes, they’re not in the ultra-rich category. If they are US citizens they are on the hook for worldwide income, if they aren’t filing they are breaking US law. Otherwise I don’t see how they are avoiding income taxes, most countries consider income earned in country taxable. The countries they are earning income in need to go after them then. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/92 "2012-09-04T21:03:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Huh? My “opponent”'s point is that the oligarchs of yesteryear apparently mixed with people more than the current ones. Do you agree? I don’t. I don’t remember making that point. My point would be, however, that there was probably more mixing in the 50s and 60s and 70s, when the wealth gap was much smaller. As far as the late 1800s and early 1900s go, sure, there was a big wealth gap then as well, and probably a corresponding _lack_ of mixing. The Gilded Age was pretty awful in that way, both in the US and Europe. People tend to socialize with those they can relate to. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/93 "2012-09-04T21:09:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Isn’t that the point? The rich folk today are much richer than the rich folk of yesteryear while poor folk is still poor? But on its own, that observation absolutely nothing. Maybe today’s rich guys are just better at being rich guys than their ancestors (in the case of the Waltons, that’s quite literally true). The world’s money supply is not a zero sum game. If Bill Gates has a net worth of $60 billion, that has jack all to do with how successful my buddy Harold is with his window cleaning business. > [@](#): > > You know a lot of people actually can’t afford to buy iPads and HDTVs. Not everybody, but _ **most** _ people can. I live on a modest civil servant’s salary and I had no trouble buying a desktop, a laptop, and an HDTV. I didn’t rob a bank because I didn’t need to. If you’ve got a full-time job, buying many of the same luxuries as the rich (that, again, weren’t possible even a few decades ago) is not only possible, but it’s affordable. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/94 "2012-09-04T21:10:51Z")
If anyone’s surprised by the tone of the piece, that’s yet another sign that way too many liberals just don’t grasp that… 1. There are numerous factions that identify themselves as “conservative” 2. Some of these factions don’t have much in common 3. Some of these factions don’t have much use for each other 4. SOMETIMES, people are on the far right end up, for reasons of their own, supporting policies identified with the far left. Writers at The American Conservative REGULARLY take positions that liberals wouldn’t expect. Since the end of the Cold War, the writers at The American Conservative have reverted to the type of isolationism that dominated the Republican Party before World War 2. Most writers at The Amreican Conservative are DOVES, not hawks, and they LOATHE the “neocons” who, they believe, are constantly pushing the United States to war (often, they believe,on behalf of Israel). If you’re inclined to think that “conservative” automatically equals “pro-business,” The American Conservative will force you to re-think your assumptions. Standard Big Business/Country Club Republicans are NOT conservatives in any meaningful sense. The Fortune 500 gives generously and reliably to Planned Parenthood and to the gay rights movement, after all. A social conservative has NO reason to regard Big Business as his natural ally. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/95 "2012-09-04T21:17:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > People tend to get away from oppressive/failing regimes. Here - take a look at [a corner of the socialist paradise of EU](http://www.cnbc.com/id/48889555): those are not the “rich” leaving. So it goes back to the original issue then: It is ok to blame the rich for what the conservatives assume they’d do, which is to abandon any country they can’t get 400% of a typical laborer’s wages in? I notice a lot of conservatives, over the course of a debate, will drag an issue out and parse it into increasingly smaller bits, with the hope that the person will forget the original point by the time they’re done linking the semantic games from A to Z. Evil Captor said that these unpatriotic jackholes were ready to leave the country anytime their taxes went up a few percent, not taking into account that right now, the rich pay less percentage-wise than they’ve done in a long time. And you defended them. They are unpatriotic, unsympathetic, greedy oligarchs who give to charity to lower their taxes. And they pay less in taxes than you and me. They deserve to have their taxes doubled so that children won’t starve. If they want to leave the country, I hope we confiscate their assets. You shouldn’t make your wealth on the backs of Americans and then escape when America wants you to give back a little bit ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491/96 "2012-09-04T21:41:36Z")
Just for illustration, let’s look at an issue in which liberals are invariably in bed with Big Business (though they prefer not to think of it that way): illegal immigration. Both your average SDMB commie pinko AND your average Fortune 500 CEO want virtually unlimited immigration from Mexico, though for very different reasons. As the great iconoclast Edward Abbey used to put it, “Conservatives love cheap labor, and liberals love a cheap cause.” So… is welcoming massive numbers of illegal immigrants a conservative cause or a liberal cause? Once you realize it’s not so simple, you may understand why people on the far right (and the TAC definitely qualify) may end up in bed with the far left, when it comes to different issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revolt-of-the-rich-article-in-the-new-american-conservative/633491.md?page=4)