# Rewatching the Jellico-Riker dynamic in "Chains of Command" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 12, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665 "2016-11-12T18:29:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/41 "2016-11-14T05:22:02Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > They have smart, non-sentient AI they refuse to use for combat. > > In fact, let me repeat that, then I’ll fire for effect: _ **They have smart, non-sentient AI they refuse to use for combat.** _ > > An AI that can run a planet can fight a war, as evidenced by the fact beings incapable of running a planet single-handedly can fight a war. (My country’s military is my cite.) _Not_ using AIs (and relatively simple AIs by their apparent, observed standards!) to fight is condemning sentient beings to fight and die, which most analyses of the Federation would conclude that the average Federation citizen would likely regard as a Bad Thing. > > Yes, I understand the story reasons. Mentioning them is dull, harping on them is worse than dull. I’m just kind of surprised nobody seems to bring this up. Did you ever watch ST:TOS “The Ultimate Computer”. Watch it and you’ll know why. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/42 "2016-11-14T07:05:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Did you ever watch ST:TOS “The Ultimate Computer”. Watch it and you’ll know why. The lesson there wasn’t that letting the computer run the ship was bad, it was that you shouldn’t model a computer on the brain of someone who was unstable. I don’t get why Daystrom thought his own engrams would make a good starship computer. A better choice would have been the engrams of someone who’d actually, y’know, piloted a starship. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/43 "2016-11-14T11:25:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t get why Daystrom thought his own engrams would make a good starship computer. A better choice would have been the engrams of someone who’d actually, y’know, piloted a starship. Coming back around to this episode: what’s the contrivance that makes Jellico ask Riker to return to duty? Jellico wants the best pilot around to weave a shuttlecraft through the scrambles-all-sensors-except-the-short-range-proximity-detector cloud, where the enemy ships are blindly hiding: nearing 'em one by one, and making a swift course correction each time the detector goes ‘ding’ when there’s stuff. And so Geordi – who used to do a famous last-moment turn as a shuttlecraft pilot, before he became the Enterprise’s helmsman – tells Jellico that Riker’s the best; and we later find out Jellico “talked to every shuttle pilot on board” and promptly learned that Riker is “the best pilot on the ship”. Now, I don’t buy that for a second – but let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that Riker is one hell of a shuttlecraft pilot. What the heck; let’s even grant that, when it comes to shuttlecrafts, Riker is the best living pilot in the Federation. Doesn’t that still mean precisely _dick_ compared to Data reacting at high speeds? ---
**Author:** ![TwiSpark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TwiSpark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwiSpark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/44 "2016-11-14T11:45:21Z")
I saw that Youtube vid as well. The funny thing is, he claimed everyone hates Jellico but the reaction to his video is full of thumbs up and agreements. I remember watching it the first time when I was about 10 and hated him then. He was like that strict teacher you hate at school because he’s a big meanie and snaps at you to do as you’re told. When I rewatched it about 5 years ago though and understood more about the grown up themes in the show, I came to the same conclusions as the Youtuber. And yeah, Riker was really cringe-worthy in this one! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/45 "2016-11-14T16:25:24Z")
And not just to Jellico! Look at Riker when the Admiral explains that the Cardassians are maybe preparing for an incursion, and Riker asks whether the Cardassians are ready for war; she notes that she didn’t say “war”; she said “incursion”. Her whole point, see, is that she thinks they’re gambling that the Federation _won’t_ go to war over such an incursion; and, to be honest, she’s not sure we _would_ go to war over such an incursion; and so she’s really hoping that the presence of the fleet’s flagship, under the command of the tactician who successfully negotiated the armistice, will send the right message without a torpedo being fired. Just check out the look on Riker’s face when the woman who outranks the man who outranks him is making that point: _can you believe this pedantic bitch? Sheesh, lemme roll my eyes, maybe while making the talky-talky hand gesture._ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/46 "2016-11-14T17:41:28Z")
Maybe he doesn’t like being flagsplained to. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/47 "2016-11-14T18:28:12Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > They experimented with it [once](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Computer). Didn’t work out too well for them. Never again. This does seem to be something of a pattern with Earth/Federation culture (as evidenced by the way the whole Eugenics War kerfluffle has left them with a permanent taboo about genetic enhancement). ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/48 "2016-11-14T18:29:36Z")
I’m glad that I’m not the only one who isn’t all 100% on board with Riker and the _Enterprise_ crew on this. Sure Jellico’s style was completely different than Picard’s and maybe he shouldn’t have jumped in headfirst with all the “change the crew rotations” stuff but he’s the one with the 4 pips and he’s the one who makes the decisions for the ship. Since Riker is a commander, he should have had the military experience and bearing to accept and work with whoever is his superior. Jellico is a source of conflict here but he’s definitely not a bad guy. Wasn’t this the first time that Riker was referred to as the best pilot around? That was one of those “where’d that come from?” moments. Guess that will satisfy the plot though… ---
**Author:** ![TwiSpark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TwiSpark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwiSpark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/49 "2016-11-14T22:17:46Z")
Yeah that was odd. At least Voyager had the actual pilot (one liner guy) as the “best pilot” trope. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/50 "2016-11-14T22:35:15Z")
“Chain of Command” was written by Ron Moore, who went on to re-boot _Battlestar Galactica_. Both _Galactica_ and “Chain of Command” play with these themes, in much the same way. I think it’s a fun device - insert a new, not-terribly-likeable character into the chain of command above Our Heroes, and have them exert their authority in ways we (the audience) don’t like. But, and here’s where I’ve had multiple arguments with people in the past, they are absolutely within their rights to do so. They show up some of the flaws in Our Heroes, and that doesn’t sit right with us as viewers sometimes. We can’t tell from “Chain of Command” how “good” a captain Jellico is, but there’s nothing to suggest he’s incompetent, and so Riker’s defiance is completely out of line. Sure, _ **we** _ know Riker’s the “good guy,” but Jellico doesn’t know that. All he sees is an XO who’s making his job more difficult than it needs to be. When Admiral Cain shows up in _Galactica_, there’s a similar dynamic (although I did like how quickly Adama stepped in line; I thought that was a nice touch). We don’t like her, and perhaps a different Admiral might have allowed for a more gentle transfer of power in the fleet, but Cain was absolutely within her rights to assume command in the way she did, and she had some excellent points about the lack of military discipline aboard Galactica. The fact that she was later shown to be a bit on the brutal end of the disciplinarian spectrum in no way changes the fact that she was legitimately in charge. Makes me suspect Ron moore has some issues with authority figures. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/51 "2016-11-14T22:48:52Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > “Chain of Command” was written by Ron Moore, who went on to re-boot _Battlestar Galactica_. Both _Galactica_ and “Chain of Command” play with these themes, in much the same way. > When Admiral Cain shows up in _Galactica_, there’s a similar dynamic (although I did like how quickly Adama stepped in line; I thought that was a nice touch). We don’t like her, and perhaps a different Admiral might have allowed for a more gentle transfer of power in the fleet, but Cain was absolutely within her rights to assume command in the way she did, and she had some excellent points about the lack of military discipline aboard Galactica. The fact that she was later shown to be a bit on the brutal end of the disciplinarian spectrum in no way changes the fact that she was legitimately in charge. “Bit”??? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665/52 "2016-11-14T23:00:40Z")
And speaking of Galactica, even once they learned their lesson from Cain, they learned it the right way: They didn’t just decide that, should another admiral survivor show up, they’d just ignore her. Instead, the President promoted Adama so he’d have a legitimate claim in case anything like that happened again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewatching-the-jellico-riker-dynamic-in-chains-of-command/771665.md?page=2)