# Rewrite the Pledge of Allegiance. Or give me reasons not to. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605 "2008-01-23T01:44:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/1 "2008-01-23T01:44:56Z")
For you non-Americans, it goes thusly: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Now, loyal as I am to the nation of my birth, there are several things about the Pledge as written that vex me. Were it up to me, I’d change the verbigage thusly: I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the principles of enumerated in the Bill of Rights; and furthermore to Republic based upon the ideals therein; one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." On the plus side, that captures the values I think we should try to impart. On the minus side, it’s as euphonious and poetic as a tax return. Thoughts, anybody? Suggestions for a better wording, or defense of the Pledge as currently written, are welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/2 "2008-01-23T01:53:50Z")
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America and the Republic built thereupon, undividable, with liberty and justice for all. _shrug_ Don’t hold much to pledges, meself. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/3 "2008-01-23T01:54:50Z")
I pledge allegiance to the [del]Flag of the[/del] United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation [del]under God[/del], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/4 "2008-01-23T01:55:56Z")
A nitpick, **Skald** …I believe that “under God” has been removed from the Pledge. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/5 "2008-01-23T01:58:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] A nitpick, **Skald** …I believe that “under God” has been removed from the Pledge. [/QUOTE] [Not according to Wikipedia.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance) And my dislike of the current pledge is also due to the idea of using the flag as the primary symbol of our nation. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/6 "2008-01-23T02:03:20Z")
There should be no set pledge, and the idea of children being asked to pledge allegiance is for me a disturbing one. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/7 "2008-01-23T02:06:34Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] [Not according to Wikipedia.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance) [/QUOTE] My mistake…maybe my local school district is doing it that way due to local sentiment. > [@](#): > > And my dislike of the current pledge is also due to the idea of using the flag as the primary symbol of our nation. I was going to point out that your pledge isn’t really a pledge to the flag anymore, but decided not to, because I think that the flag stands for what binds us together as Americans, and what binds us together as Americans is the Constitution. So, in my mind, pledging to the flag IS pledging to the Constitution. But your pledge certainly is more clear on that matter! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/8 "2008-01-23T02:07:23Z")
I was raised an evangelical Christian, & find the whole thing a bit close to idolatry for my taste. Further, it’s poor training in citizenship. Children shouldn’t be indoctrinated to follow a flag. It matters who’s carrying it. (BTW, the “under God” is a late interpolation, & breaks up the rhythm of the original.) ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/9 "2008-01-23T02:49:44Z")
It isn’t “the flag” but what the flag symbolizes, or _used_ to symbolize. Something like: “I pledge my allegiance to the United States of America, and to the principles enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution; and furthermore to the Republic based upon the ideals therein; one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” If the thing every needed to be changed, which it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/10 "2008-01-23T02:49:48Z")
I say to keep it just the way it is. And I really think that if you took a poll, most of the US would also vote to keep it as it is now. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/11 "2008-01-23T02:59:51Z")
The very concept of ritualized intonation of a loyalty oath in this fashion is really icky, when you step back from having been traditionally immersed in it. Especially so when its most common employment is essentially as a drill for schoolchildren. But icky all the same in other contexts as well. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/12 "2008-01-23T04:20:13Z")
[QUOTE=The Man In Black] I say to keep it just the way it is. And I really think that if you took a poll, most of the US would also vote to keep it as it is now. [/QUOTE] It’s one thing to take a poll to solicit opinions on a subject; it’s quite another to take a poll to determine which civil liberties would be denied. I prefer a representative democracy and formal amendment process over popularity contests to determine my rights under the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/13 "2008-01-23T04:23:21Z")
What’s all this about civil liberties and rights? No one’s being _forced_, as such, to say the pledge (except for the whole weird, semi-mandatory state any such activity necessarily exists in where young schoolchildren are concerned). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/14 "2008-01-23T04:24:39Z")
“I pledge allegiance to the [del]Flag[/del] ^[sup]Constitution[/sup]^ of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it [del]stands[/del] ^[sup]establishes a system of government[/sup]^, one Nation under [del]God[/del] ^[sup]Canada[/sup]^, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/15 "2008-01-23T05:06:40Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] What’s all this about civil liberties and rights? No one’s being _forced_, as such, to say the pledge (except for the whole weird, semi-mandatory state any such activity necessarily exists in where young schoolchildren are concerned). [/QUOTE] Can teachers actually be required to lead their classes in the pledge (particularly in grade school)? I never saw any of my teachers not say the pledge and I had my fair share of them hassle me over my refusal to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/16 "2008-01-23T05:15:25Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] Can teachers actually be required to lead their classes in the pledge (particularly in grade school)? I never saw any of my teachers not say the pledge and I had my fair share of them hassle me over my refusal to say it. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school. Source: [West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette) Of course, this has not stopped school boards from doing end runs around this decision, not to mention peer pressure. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/17 "2008-01-23T05:26:18Z")
We pledge allegiance to ourselves, that which is cognizant in this universe, and to that which is, of which we are a part and which is our home. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/18 "2008-01-23T05:36:23Z")
Out of curiosity, what other countries currently have anything like the American pledge of allegiance (that is, an oath of loyalty to the state which most people have ritually recited on a near-daily basis during at least some period of their life)? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/19 "2008-01-23T05:36:39Z")
Why pledge separately to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights when the latter is part of the former? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605/20 "2008-01-23T05:52:36Z")
I hate attacks on the Pledge, but also acknowledge the rights of others. Where did we go wrong? Why do we have to accomodate every single instance of atheism, vocal minorities, etc? Why did schools have prayer in the first place? Didn’t that enviornment foster a better class of graduates than the uber-secular one we have now? This is from a serious religion-doubter. But there is no doubting the results. People rarely dropped out of school in the 1950’s versus now. Why is that? Moratorium on capital punishment? God out of our schools? What explains the decline? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewrite-the-pledge-of-allegiance-or-give-me-reasons-not-to/434605.md?page=2)