# Rewriting the sports record books
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839
**Category:** The Game Room
**Created:** [August 27, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839 "2012-08-27T17:20:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/1 "2012-08-27T17:20:12Z")
Last week the USADA officially stripped Lance Armstrong of his Tour de France titles. This came a few weeks after the NCAA officially stripped Penn State’s football program of its wins as far back as 1998. These are just two examples of a phenomenon that’s becoming more and more common. Soon it may be a hard and fast rule that if any athlete does something that most folks don’t like, we’ll rewrite the official records to say that athlete has no victories or achievements.
I say that’s not right. Record books, whether for sports or politics or economic data or anything else, exist to tell the truth. Telling the truth about sports may be less important than in other fields, but it’s still an example of a disturbing trend towards telling comforting untruths that society wants to hear rather than cold, hard facts. Should we also write fictional history books that retroactively remove the Presidencies and Congressional terms of those later convicted of serious crimes?
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/2 "2012-08-27T17:26:02Z")
Nice job of poisoning your own well there.
> [@](#):
>
> …if any athlete does something that most folks don’t like, we’ll rewrite the official records to say that athlete has no victories or achievements.
I think stripping people of “victories” (rather than, say, prizes) is silly- but that characterization is sillier.
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/3 "2012-08-27T17:35:17Z")
It’s nothing new. The Cincinnati Reds are the 1919 World Series Champions even though they lost the Series to the Chicago White (Black) Sox. One team intentionally broke the rules and had their title stripped. Shoeless Joe Jackson is still banned from the Hall of Fame despite being without question one of the greatest baseball players ever.
One hundred years ago Jim Thorpe won the Pentathlon and Decathlon in the Stockholm Olympics. It was found that he had played semi-professional baseball games in 1909 and 1910, and was thus not an amateur. He was stripped of his medals which were awarded to second place finisher. Seventy years later, the ruling was reversed and Thorpe was awarded the Golds again, posthumously.
There are many, many more examples.
P.S. The Tour de France has a lot more vacated wins than just those won by Lance Armstrong. Floyd Landis? So does college football.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/4 "2012-08-27T17:47:48Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> Record books, whether for sports or politics or economic data or anything else, exist to tell the truth.
But in the case of sports, the “truth” is rather more arbitrary than you’re making out. Sports aren’t just about who wins a game or performs a feat; they are about who does so _within an arbitrary set of rules that define the sport_. Someone who wins a sporting event by cheating is no more the real winner than someone who “wins” a chess game by slapping all of his opponent’s pieces off the board. Winning by cheating doesn’t _count_.
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### Author:  [@W0X0F](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W0X0F)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/5 "2012-08-27T17:54:25Z")
Nitpick: The Cincinnati Reds won the 1919 World Series on the field, 5 games to 3. (Best-of-nine that year.) Yes, a bunch of Sox were eventually banned from the game for throwing the Series, but it wasn’t as if they won and then forfeited. Sort of defeats the purpose of having the fix in, no?
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/6 "2012-08-27T17:55:45Z")
I’m with ITR. Put an “asterisk” in the record books, if you will, but don’t lie to people. Lance Armstrong really did come in first at 7 Tour de Frances.
Say he was doped up and let people make their own opinions about that fact. But he really did, as a point of fact, ride his bike faster than the other guys (who were also all on drugs, I’m positive).
That’s beside the point of whether it even matters that somebody is on drugs. Lance was on craploads of drugs to fight cancer. No problem there. He spent 10s of thousands on fancy high tech bike gear, but that’s not cheating. But if he gets a blood transfusion mid-race, or adds a little extra testosterone to the gallons already coursing through his veins, he’s the scum of the earth and should be punished? I don’t buy it. It’s not like he took a taxi.
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/7 "2012-08-27T18:06:34Z")
Roberto De Vincenzo lost the 1968 Masters tournament because his playing partner wrote down the wrong score for De Vincenzo’s 17th hole on the final day. De Vincenzo signed the incorrect scorecard, and by the rules had to accept the higher score as official. He actually tied Bob Goalby and would have been in an 18 hole playoff the next day, but the rules are the rules, even though dozens of people, including rules officials, caddies, and hundreds of spectators saw him score a three instead of a four.
There is no telling who would have won the playoff if played, but I think few golf writers and historians would dispute that De Vincenzo was the better golfer than Goalby at the time.
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### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/8 "2012-08-27T18:11:15Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> I’m with ITR. Put an “asterisk” in the record books, if you will, but don’t lie to people. Lance Armstrong really did come in first at 7 Tour de Frances.
>
> Say he was doped up and let people make their own opinions about that fact. But he really did, as a point of fact, ride his bike faster than the other guys (who were also all on drugs, I’m positive).
>
> That’s beside the point of whether it even matters that somebody is on drugs. Lance was on craploads of drugs to fight cancer. No problem there. He spent 10s of thousands on fancy high tech bike gear, but that’s not cheating. But if he gets a blood transfusion mid-race, or adds a little extra testosterone to the gallons already coursing through his veins, he’s the scum of the earth and should be punished? I don’t buy it. It’s not like he took a taxi.
The issue is not whether he’s the scum of the earth or not. He may be a saint. In this case I totally agree with **Der Trihs** : The question is whether he was cheating or not. If he was cheating then he isn’t the winner. That’s sports.
Actually, the question is even more broad than that: It’s whether he was following the rules or not. If he wasn’t then he isn’t the winner. That’s sports.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/9 "2012-08-27T18:12:35Z")
Say that I win the presidency. Three years later, it’s determined that all of the votes that lead to my win were actually falsified. Because it’s now been written in the Wikipedia that I’m the president, I shouldn’t be ousted?
Armstrong didn’t play by the rules. He had the appearance of being the winner, but he factually wasn’t because he was cheating. They’re not purging history of records, they’re just reassigning the win to the best contender who actually played the game they were supposed to be playing.
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/10 "2012-08-27T18:12:47Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> That’s beside the point of whether it even matters that somebody is on drugs. Lance was on craploads of drugs to fight cancer. No problem there. He spent 10s of thousands on fancy high tech bike gear, but that’s not cheating. But if he gets a blood transfusion mid-race, or adds a little extra testosterone to the gallons already coursing through his veins, he’s the scum of the earth and should be punished? I don’t buy it. It’s not like he took a taxi.
Do you feel the same way about Floyd Landis? Marion Jones? Barry Bonds? Mark McGwire? Roger Clemens? How about the hairy-backed East German female swimmers and track athletes in the 80’s and 90’s?
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/11 "2012-08-27T18:31:40Z")
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> Actually, the question is even more broad than that: It’s whether he was following the rules or not. If he wasn’t then he isn’t the winner. That’s sports.
I disagree. Look at the [George Brett Pine Tar Incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_tar_incident). Do you think his home run should have counted or not?
Unfortunately, real life things aren’t so easy as looking in a book. “Does it agree with what’s written there in black and white? If not, it’s wrong.” Frankly, some rules are wrong, and should be ignored. That goes for the law, etiquette, politics and sports (and just about everything else).
Look at the guy with carbon fiber legs in the Olympics. If adding some more of a certain chemical that is already in your blood is cheating, why isn’t wearing artificial limbs made of space age material cheating? Our society is unjustifiably queasy about drugs in a non-medical context, that’s it. And that should change.
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/12 "2012-08-27T18:36:52Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#):
>
> Do you feel the same way about Floyd Landis? Marion Jones? Barry Bonds? Mark McGwire? Roger Clemens? How about the hairy-backed East German female swimmers and track athletes in the 80’s and 90’s?
Yes. There should be no rule against ingesting whatever substances you want, and sports shouldn’t be segregated by sex. (Even so, I’m pretty sure those East German athletes really were women. Although I read about someone kicked out of the Olympics for having an XXY chromosomal mutation. Where do those people fit in a sex segregated playing field?)
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/13 "2012-08-27T18:40:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> Yes. There should be no rule against ingesting whatever substances you want, and sports shouldn’t be segregated by sex. (Even so, I’m pretty sure those East German athletes really were women. Although I read about someone kicked out of the Olympics for having an XXY chromosomal mutation. Where do those people fit in a sex segregated playing field?)
So what’s wrong with catching a taxi, then?
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/14 "2012-08-27T18:50:07Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#):
>
> So what’s wrong with catching a taxi, then?
It’s not the sport you’re playing. I can’t really explain it better than that, and I don’t feel I have to since I’m not the one arguing for bright, clear lines. I’m saying it’s a judgement call, and deferring to the rule book is abdicating the responsibility to make that judgement.
Taking a taxi is NOT “riding a bike ~4000km as fast as you can”, which is what most people would consider is the spirit of the TdF. Getting a blood transfusion during the race still IS. Lance _really did_ ride his bike from start to finish, past all other competitors, and he finished first.
Taking a taxi, installing a motor on his bike, getting someone else to ride for him – I would consider all those things cheating. But putting a forbidden chemical in his blood just doesn’t rise to that level for me. Modern athletics is all about having the right chemicals in your blood at the right time, using precisely timed diet, exercise, and supplements. Having a blacklist of supplements and procedures and saying “these will make you TOO good, therefore they are forbidden” just doesn’t make any sense to me.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/15 "2012-08-27T19:21:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Say that I win the presidency. Three years later, it’s determined that all of the votes that lead to my win were actually falsified. Because it’s now been written in the Wikipedia that I’m the president, I shouldn’t be ousted?
The relevant question, to make a comparison to the Penn State or Armstrong cases, is not whether you should be ousted. The question is whether the historical records should be altered to say that you didn’t serve as President during those three years. Richard Nixon was forced from office due to criminal acts in the 1972 campaign, but all official and unofficial sources still say that he was President until August 9, 1974.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/16 "2012-08-27T19:34:06Z")
That’s because he **was**. There was no question about the election. He quit rather than be impeached for other breaches. Armstrong didn’t follow the rules of the sport, therefore he did not win. What was written down before is meaningless. He cheated, and his wins don’t count.
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### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/17 "2012-08-27T19:37:04Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> It’s not the sport you’re playing.
Neither is doping. The sport isn’t “riding a bike as fast as you can”, it’s “riding a bike as fast as you can while following these rules”.
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/18 "2012-08-27T19:42:55Z")
> [@silenus](#):
>
> That’s because he **was**. There was no question about the election. He quit rather than be impeached for other breaches. Armstrong didn’t follow the rules of the sport, therefore he did not win. What was written down before is meaningless. He cheated, and his wins don’t count.
Suppose Nixon’s misdeeds had been made public during the 1972 election. Do you think he would have won? I don’t. So by hiding those crimes, he _cheated_, and therefore wasn’t the rightful president from 1972-74.
Regardless of the crimes committed, Richard Nixon _actually was_ the president until 1974, and Lance Armstrong _actually did_ come in first 7 times at the Tour de France.
And Telemark, that’s my argument. That blindly following rules is _wrong_. Most people feel that it doesn’t matter how much pine tar is on your bat, if you hit a ball over the outfield fence, it should be a home run. Some people like me feel that it doesn’t matter what substances are in your veins, if you ride a bike thousands of miles faster than the competition, you’ve won the race. Other people disagree. So be it.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/19 "2012-08-27T19:43:08Z")
[Modding]
Moved to The Game Room from Great Debates
[/Modding]
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> I say that’s not right. Record books, whether for sports or politics or economic data or anything else, exist to tell the truth.
Is that why they exist? I think sports record books generally exist to compile verified results as they are accepted by the governing bodies of the relevant sports. In that sense, yes, the NCAA or USADA are the ones who sanction the events and grant the titles and determine athlete eligibility (in the case of the NCAA), and they determine what their official records are. If you want to, you can put out your own record book that doesn’t note that Lance Armstrong was doping and Reggie Bush accepted improper benefits and Joe Paterno wasn’t particularly concerned about child rape and so on. But I bet the NCAA and USADA and so on won’t let you put their names on it because they’re the ones who make the rules and determine who follows them.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/20 "2012-08-27T19:44:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> And Telemark, that’s my argument. That blindly following rules is wrong. Most people feel that it doesn’t matter how much pine tar is on your bat, if you hit a ball over the outfield fence, it should be a home run. Some people like me feel that it doesn’t matter what substances are in your veins, if you ride a bike thousands of miles faster than the competition, you’ve won the race. Other people disagree. So be it.
Okay, so if Armstrong rode in a cab, he didn’t win - but if his bike was towed by one, he’s a champ?
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