# Rewriting the sports record books **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 27, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839 "2012-08-27T17:20:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/41 "2012-08-28T04:50:30Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Roberto De Vincenzo lost the 1968 Masters tournament because his playing partner wrote down the wrong score for De Vincenzo’s 17th hole on the final day. De Vincenzo signed the incorrect scorecard, and by the rules had to accept the higher score as official. He actually tied Bob Goalby and would have been in an 18 hole playoff the next day, but the rules are the rules, even though dozens of people, including rules officials, caddies, and hundreds of spectators saw him score a three instead of a four. > > There is no telling who would have won the playoff if played, but I think few golf writers and historians would dispute that De Vincenzo was the better golfer than Goalby at the time. Actually DeVicenzo was 45 years old and nearly finished. He won one more tournament. Goalby was much more than a journeyman winning 11 PGA events, 2 more than DeVicenzo in his career and he was 6 years younger. It is true that DeVicenzo had the more impressive career, on a world-wide basis, but there is certainly no concensus on who was the better golfer in 1968. An interesting story about Tommy Aaron, who wrote the wrong score on the card in 1968. In 1973, on his way to winning the Masters, Aaron was partnered by Johnny Miller in the last round. Miller wrote down a higher score for Aaron on a hole but Aaron caught the mistake. An accident? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/42 "2012-08-28T13:48:51Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Lamar Mundane > > So what’s wrong with catching a taxi, then? > > It’s not the sport you’re playing. I can’t really explain it better than that, and I don’t feel I have to since I’m not the one arguing for bright, clear lines. Sure you are. > [@DrCube](#): > > Taking a taxi is NOT “riding a bike ~4000km as fast as you can”, That’s your bright line rule. You’ve defined the sport differently than the sport’s own organizers, but you’ve got a bright line rule. If someone breaks that rule, you say they’ve not won. But why should that be the case if there are no bright line rules? Why don’t we just record that Mr Bean got close to the line by taxi, ahead of his competitors, hopped on a bike, and crossed the finish line first? If that’s all that matters, then just put Mr. Bean in the record books with an asterisk and let everyone have their own opinion of it. > [@DrCube](#): > > Taking a taxi, installing a motor on his bike, getting someone else to ride for him – I would consider all those things cheating. But putting a forbidden chemical in his blood just doesn’t rise to that level for me. Modern athletics is all about having the right chemicals in your blood at the right time, using precisely timed diet, exercise, and supplements. Your objection isn’t really with the issue raised by the OP, namely changing the records with a rule breach is uncovered; it’s with certain rules that you don’t agree with. It sounds as if you would agree with stripping Mr Bean of the title if it were found out that he had a hidden motor on his bike or paid someone to ride for him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/43 "2012-08-28T14:11:06Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > It’s nothing new. The Cincinnati Reds are the 1919 World Series Champions even though they lost the Series to the Chicago White (Black) Sox. One team intentionally broke the rules and had their title stripped. Nothing of the kind even remotely happened. No title was ever stripped in the Black Sox incident. The White Sox lost the series, and several Chicago players were punished for intentionally losing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/44 "2012-08-28T15:38:00Z")
This is far from exciting, but I think this is where we have to talk about the differences in the way various sports are organized. In leagues owned and run by small groups of billionaires and quasibillionaires, you probably won’t see records and results overturned because the owners run the league and decide what the rules and the records are. In sports with a more rigid independent organization (especially an international one) or in amateur sports with a central controlling body, options like canceling records and stripping titles are more likely to be an option. At least that’s my general impression. I cannot imagine baseball and football rewriting their record books. Most people are very sure Barry Bonds was using a bunch of steroids and so were Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens and others, but there is zero chance any of their records will be stripped because baseball doesn’t work that way. (The fact that baseball was not enforcing its own anti-drug rules helps contribute to the situation.) In football you don’t overturn results because a player cheated. I’m sure the NBA wouldn’t do it either. In tennis, which is basically run by a weird hybrid organization that represents the players and the tournament organizers despite some conflicts of interest, players who cheat are fined and suspended and lose ranking points but results are not rewritten or stripped. In the NCAA or international cycling, it’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/45 "2012-08-28T16:30:23Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Your objection isn’t really with the issue raised by the OP, namely changing the records with a rule breach is uncovered; it’s with certain rules that you don’t agree with. It sounds as if you would agree with stripping Mr Bean of the title if it were found out that he had a hidden motor on his bike or paid someone to ride for him. No. I apologize for being confusing and making two arguments, but I do agree with ITR about the “rewriting history” aspect of stripping titles and revoking wins. I personally think Lance Armstrong was probably doped up, and but he rode his bike over the course of the race faster than his opponents, who were also very likely doped up. I still count that as a win in my book. IF, years after the races, he had been accused and proven to have used a motorized bike in the race, I wouldn’t consider him a winner. BUT I still wouldn’t demand we rewrite history books pertaining to the race. Any new books that came out would say “Lance won the race, but it was later found that he used a motorized bike. He was therefore convicted of fraud and was forced to return his prize money.” Because that’s what actually happened. Nowhere should it say “Remember that race you watched in 2004 where Lance Armstrong won? Yeah, that didn’t happen. That guy in second place you never heard of won instead.” Because that simply isn’t factual. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/46 "2012-08-28T16:41:56Z")
If by “winning,” you mean “finishing first without cheating,” then Lance was never the winner, it just wasn’t discovered until later. I don’t see anything counterfactual about it. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/47 "2012-08-28T16:55:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If by “winning,” you mean “finishing first without cheating,” then Lance was never the winner, it just wasn’t discovered until later. I don’t see anything counterfactual about it. Exactly, that’s what it comes down to. People who feel about doping the way I feel about using cabs or secretly motorized bikes can simply not consider Lance the winner. It all comes down to your definition of that sport, and what it means to “win” it. The only argument I’m making is that individuals should get to make that call, and record books should stick to the facts. I mean, Lance won. I saw it on tv, he got a trophy, ESPN made a big deal about how great American athletes were for beating up the frenchies, there was Champagne everywhere. I don’t care if he rode on a rocket or teleported to the finish line. Since he wasn’t caught, the event happened. They awarded him a trophy. According to everyone at the time, Lance was the champion. Now, if a few years later it comes out that he cheated, by all means let everyone know. Publicize it. Shout it from the rooftops. Sue him for fraud, because he lied to get the prize money. And if you personally want to think it, by all means say he didn’t win. Just like I would if I found out he took a taxi. But you can’t pretend that it didn’t happen. That people weren’t showering him with Champagne and confetti and trophies and money because he actually did win the Tour de France. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/48 "2012-08-28T17:12:47Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The only argument I’m making is that individuals should get to make that call, and record books should stick to the facts. It does. You’re arguing that it should stick to different facts or a different interpretation of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/49 "2012-08-28T18:35:39Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I mean, Lance won. I saw it on tv, And I saw Rosie Ruiz win the 1980 Boston Marathon. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/50 "2012-08-28T20:12:20Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And I saw Rosie Ruiz win the 1980 Boston Marathon. On Monday. On Thursday, however, they re-staged the finish line with Jacqueline Gareau as the winner. Honestly, I’m torn there. Rosie obviously didn’t win the Boston Marathon. I’m totally comfortable with saying that. And they caught her pretty quickly considering. Still, the whole re-staging of the finish line, complete with crowds, so that they could get pictures of Gareau breaking the tape, is just too Orwellian for me to condone. It’s especially bad when it isn’t four days later that they decide to change the past, but a decade later. There’s quite a difference between saying “That unknown lady you never saw running, who we just gave a medal to yesterday, totally didn’t deserve it. Our bad.” and “That guy whose race you watched for a week, who shocked the world and pulled off unbelievable feats of endurance, that hero you’ve been celebrating and looking up to for ten years? Yeah, we’re just going to unilaterally call him an unaccomplished loser now”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/51 "2012-08-28T20:22:16Z")
Nobody’s saying that, of course. They’re not deleting the video, they’re not saying it didn’t happen, and they didn’t call him a loser. They’re not longer recognizing Armstrong as champion on account of the fact that they have proof he was cheating. I agree it’s frustrating when you have to discount records people had long believed were legit (although this Armstrong stuff didn’t exactly come out of nowhere), but the alternative is basically a statute of limitations where if you get away with cheating for long enough, you win. ---
**Author:** ![Intelligently\_Designed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intelligently_designed/32/20957_2.png) [@Intelligently\_Designed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intelligently_Designed)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839/52 "2012-08-30T22:35:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **That Don Guy** > For example, suppose Ben Johnson had been disqualified from the 100m final at the Seoul Olympics because he ran out of his lane. Would it be “right” to say that Carl Lewis was the winner? Interesting question, even more so if we consider that upon Johnson’s disqualification, Lewis inherited the gold medal, even though [Lewis himself stepped out of his lane](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDoCkY0_6y8). Have a look at 2:46 of the video. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rewriting-the-sports-record-books/632839.md?page=2)