# RexDart: "...appeasement will work if we abandon Israel" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317 "2003-02-02T16:56:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/21 "2003-02-03T01:16:48Z")
I would also add that Yemen has made progress towards a democratic form of government although offically a republic. They do hold free elections. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/22 "2003-02-03T01:36:34Z")
[Bahrain](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/30/opinion/30FRIE.html) > [@](#): > > MANAMA, Bahrain — Think about the contrasting headlines made last week by the biggest Arab state and the smallest Arab state. From the biggest state, Egypt, came the news that its state TV planned to run a 41-part series during the month of Ramadan — when TV viewing is at its highest — about a Zionist conspiracy to control Arab lands. From the smallest state, Bahrain, came the news that it had successfully conducted the **first democratic parliamentary election in the Arab gulf** , to begin empowering Bahrainis to control their own land. > > Therein lies the two Arab responses to 9/11. One, the Egyptian model, is to feed their people bread, circuses and conspiracy theories to explain why they are falling behind in the world. The other, the Bahraini model, is to feed their people more responsibility, a freer press and greater ability to shape their own future to help them catch up in the world. (Emphasis mine) Give credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/23 "2003-02-03T01:57:05Z")
Thanks Mr. Beagle. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/24 "2003-02-03T02:12:50Z")
Actually, Hank, I consider Turkey to be in both Europe and Asia. Kind of like I consider Russia to have both a European section and an Asian section. Bahrain: A partially elected/partially appointed legislature and a monarch who “doesn’t rule out allowing political parties to operate”? (That’s all from the Bahraini embassy site, btw.) Yeah, that’s really democratic. Although my opinion doesn’t count for much with the average Bahraini subject, I, for one, am glad that the monarch’s making strides, great or small, to let folks rule themselves. Israel: Your response proves your comment about it was pure bunk. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/25 "2003-02-03T02:22:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hank Fescue \* > \*\*We went from support and weapons to war with Iraq with amazing speed. \*\* Really? And how is that, precisely? As I recall, the U.S. had an arms embargo on Iraq for quite some time before the Gulf War. Iraqi weapons were almost universally of Soviet and French origin. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/26 "2003-02-03T02:25:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hank Fescue \* > \*\*Israel is not the only democracy in the middle east and is a psuedo democracy at best. \*\* I am very curious to see some evidence to back this up. The _only_ other democracy anywhere close is Turkey - only arguably in the ME at all. As for “pseudo democracy”, I really want to know how you conclude that. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/27 "2003-02-03T02:31:05Z")
It is no big secret that the US provided financal and military aid to the Iraqis during the 1980s. Not to mention that it was done with the full knowledge that chemical weapons were being used. We provoded intelligence and planning to the Iraqis. Not that hardware was transfered, but intelligence is probably the single most important weapon of war. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/28 "2003-02-03T02:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malthus \* > \*\*I am very curious to see some evidence to back this up. > > The _only_ other democracy anywhere close is Turkey - only arguably in the ME at all. > > As for “pseudo democracy”, I really want to know how you conclude that. Really. \*\* We have just given two fledgling democracies in the Middle East, Yemen, a democratic republic and Bahrain which also holds free democratic elections. I don’t really think of Israel as a true democracy. Here is the plan. Move in alot of our people, move out alot of thier people, restrict citizenship and voting. Now lets have free democratic elections. They are a fledgling democracy just like the others. They have the right idea but they aren’t really there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/29 "2003-02-03T02:39:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Actually, Hank, I consider Turkey to be in both Europe and Asia. Kind of like I consider Russia to have both a European section and an Asian section. > > Bahrain: A partially elected/partially appointed legislature and a monarch who “doesn’t rule out allowing political parties to operate”? (That’s all from the Bahraini embassy site, btw.) Yeah, that’s really democratic. Although my opinion doesn’t count for much with the average Bahraini subject, I, for one, am glad that the monarch’s making strides, great or small, to let folks rule themselves. > > Israel: Your response proves your comment about it was pure bunk. \*\* I said it was my opinion. You are calling my opinion bunk? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/30 "2003-02-03T02:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hank Fescue \* > \*\*I wouldn’t even begin to try and prove that Israel is a pseudo democracy as that is an opinion based on the voter requirements used by Israel to contro who votes. \*\* What are Israel’s voting requirements? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/31 "2003-02-03T02:43:46Z")
Never mind, I think I found it. According to CNN, “all citizens aged 18 or older on election day are eligible to vote.” [http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/israeli.elections/elex.primer.html](http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/israeli.elections/elex.primer.html) What’s wrong with those voter requirements? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/32 "2003-02-03T02:54:51Z")
Israels voting requirements. [http://tellinglies.org/news/archives/000202.html](http://tellinglies.org/news/archives/000202.html) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/33 "2003-02-03T02:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hank Fescue \* > \*\*We have just given two fledgling democracies in the Middle East, Yemen, a democratic republic and Bahrain which also holds free democratic elections. > > I don’t really think of Israel as a true democracy. Here is the plan. Move in alot of our people, move out alot of thier people, restrict citizenship and voting. Now lets have free democratic elections. They are a fledgling democracy just like the others. They have the right idea but they aren’t really there yet. \*\* Read this on Yemen: [http://www.idea.int/publications/arab\_world/ArabWorld-part2.html](http://www.idea.int/publications/arab_world/ArabWorld-part2.html) Sounds more “fledgling” than “democratic” to me. You do realize that Arabs have full voting rights in Israel, and their own political parties and politicians … right? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/34 "2003-02-03T02:57:33Z")
Good. Now check the statistics on Israeli citizenship and those requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/35 "2003-02-03T02:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hank Fescue \* > \*\*Israels voting requirements. > > [http://tellinglies.org/news/archives/000202.html](http://tellinglies.org/news/archives/000202.html) \*\* From that cite: “In that spirit, citizens who are non-Jews have freedom of religion as well as equal voting rights- Israel has quite a few non-Jewish members of the Knesset, as well as Arab parties. Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel.” What exactly is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/36 "2003-02-03T03:00:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malthus \* > \*\*Read this on Yemen: [http://www.idea.int/publications/arab\_world/ArabWorld-part2.html](http://www.idea.int/publications/arab_world/ArabWorld-part2.html) > > Sounds more “fledgling” than “democratic” to me. > > You do realize that Arabs have full voting rights in Israel, and their own political parties and politicians … right? \*\* If all Arabs in Israel had voting rights things would be much different. All Arab citizens. You left out the part about citizenship. But you knew that didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/37 "2003-02-03T03:03:52Z")
Sure am calling your opinion bunk, Hank. After all, you’ve just shown that it’s not based on fact. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/38 "2003-02-03T03:05:07Z")
Does anyone have any opinions on the whole “abandon Israel” thing? The topic even has “appeasement” in it. It’s red meat, dig in. I’m pretty sure that Israel is one of, if not the most, democratic country in the area - whatever area that is. The Knesset fights like crazy, it must be democratic. I only mentioned Bahrain because it is such an exception to the rule. Democracy checklist: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Saudi, etc… _crickets_ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/39 "2003-02-03T03:05:20Z")
Forgot to ask you for another cite, Hank: When did Israel “move out a bunch of people?” I was under the impression that a bunch of people left when Israel was established hoping that the Arab nations attacking Israel would wipe it out and they’d get to go back and enjoy the land. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317/40 "2003-02-03T03:08:58Z")
Subject, meet verb. I hate it when I do that. Let me be clear: Israel is a democracy. The burden is on anyone who asserts otherwise. They have free, fair, multiparty elections. The leader changes frequently, no political violence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rexdart-appeasement-will-work-if-we-abandon-israel/152317.md?page=3)