# RFK Jr. files whistleblower suit against Diebold **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848 "2006-07-17T13:48:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/1 "2006-07-17T13:48:25Z")
[From _In These Times:_](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2750/) > [@](#): > > On July 13, the Pensacola, Fla.-based law firm of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. filed a “qui tam” lawsuit in U.S. District Court, alleging that Diebold and other electronic voting machine (EVM) companies fraudulently represented to state election boards and the federal government that their products were “unhackable.” > > Kennedy claims to have witnesses “centrally located, deep within the corporations,” who will confirm that company officials withheld their knowledge of problems with accuracy, reliability and security of EVMs in order to procure government contracts. Since going into service, many of these machines have been linked to allegations of election fraud. > > \ > > The contents of the suit could be under judicial seal for at least 60 days while the U.S. Department of Justice considers whether or not to join the suit. If U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales decides not to join the suit, Levin Papantonio may approach individual state attorneys general. If no one joins, the firm is free to, as Papantonio puts it, “stand in the shoes of the Attorney General and fight on behalf of the taxpayers and the nation.” But is this soon enough? Will it have any effect on whether the machines are used in this November’s election? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/2 "2006-07-17T14:00:46Z")
How’s that for timing, eh? 2 years after the first time they were used, just shy of the next election, they file a lawsuit with “unnamed” whistleblowers in an attempt to prove the same fraud they’ve been unable to prove since 2004. I really hope he’s right, because this transparent attempt to anger the electorate and try to sway votes away from the Republican party will backfire massively come November if he’s wrong, and since the Democrats are already likely to make gains it will cut into that severely. Proof. Proof is what is needed here. I have seen nothing but sour grapes suppositions and wildly bizarre scenrios and conspiracy theories. This is only the millionth thread about this very topic, and you guys keep presenting it as a given when it’s anything but. Let Kennedy (!) try to prove it. I don’t think he can. Nobody else has been able to, and some people have devoted all of their time to trying. What’s more, this lawsuit alleges that Diebold claimed that the machines were “unhackable”, which even if untrue only serves to infer, not prove, that the election results were a fraud. Don’t you get tired of trying to do “guilt by innuendo”? PROVE it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/3 "2006-07-17T14:04:04Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > How’s that for timing, eh? 2 years after the first time they were used, just shy of the next election, they file a lawsuit with “unnamed” whistleblowers in an attempt to prove the same fraud they’ve been unable to prove since 2004. > > I really hope he’s right, because this transparent attempt to anger the electorate and try to sway votes away from the Republican party will backfire massively come November if he’s wrong, and since the Democrats are already likely to make gains it will cut into that severely. > > Proof. Proof is what is needed here. I have seen nothing but sour grapes suppositions and wildly bizarre scenrios and conspiracy theories. This is only the millionth thread about this very topic, and you guys keep presenting it as a given when it’s anything but. Let Kennedy (!) try to prove it. I don’t think he can. Nobody else has been able to, and some people have devoted all of their time to trying. > > What’s more, this lawsuit alleges that Diebold claimed that the machines were “unhackable”, which even if untrue only serves to infer, not prove, that the election results were a fraud. Don’t you get tired of trying to do “guilt by innuendo”? PROVE it. The only proof that counts for anything in America today is the proof shown in a Courtroom. Which is where this is going. Didn’t know you were still a W-head, **Airman**. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/4 "2006-07-17T14:10:22Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Didn’t know you were still a W-head, **Airman**. Pathetic response. I’m not. Is that your only avenue of attack, attack the person? My boy lost in 2004, and yet I can accept that. Pulling out the cheating boogeyman every few weeks shows a decided lack of acceptance of that fact. Kerry lost for numerous reasons, and until I see proof of actual rigging the machines were not one of those reasons. I suppose if the Democrats don’t win this year I should steel myself for more of these types of threads in the coming years, with more accusations of me being a Bushbot or right-wingnut even though I’m almost certainly voting straight-ticket Democrat in this next election and I did in the last one. But hey, why address my post when you can distract from it by attacking the poster? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/5 "2006-07-17T14:14:02Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > But hey, why address my post when you can distract from it by attacking the poster? I’m not. I really didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/6 "2006-07-17T14:15:13Z")
Inflection & vocal tone is difficult/impossible to reproduce online. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/7 "2006-07-17T14:16:11Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > How’s that for timing, eh? 2 years after the first time they were used, just shy of the next election, they file a lawsuit with “unnamed” whistleblowers in an attempt to prove the same fraud they’ve been unable to prove since 2004. Actually, the theory of the case is not that Diebold did any vote-rigging, but that Diebold sold the state of Florida a product it misrepresented as reliable. And the actual purpose, I’m sure, is not to cast doubt on the results of earlier elections, but simply to get the machines out of use and prevent any possibility of fraud in the **coming** election. You don’t have any problem with any of that, do you? :dubious: > [@Airman Doors](#): > > Proof. Proof is what is needed here. Well, the records are temporarily sealed, as noted above, and even if they weren’t, at this stage of the case they would not reflect any evidence, that comes later. But as a lawyer I can tell you, you just don’t file a lawsuit unless you’ve got **some** proof to offer relating to a justiciable claim; the court can sanction you for filing a frivolous suit. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/8 "2006-07-17T14:23:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, the theory of the case is not that Diebold did any vote-rigging, but that Diebold sold the state of Florida a product it misrepresented as reliable. And the actual purpose, I’m sure, is not to cast doubt on the results of earlier elections, but simply to get the machines out of use and prevent any possibility of fraud in the **coming** election. That’s disingenuous. They have to prove that there was some sort of fraud in the past to make the case that there will be fraud in the future, otherwise they will be preventing nothing of the sort in the coming election. > [@](#): > > You don’t have any problem with any of that, do you? :dubious: No, I have no problem with that, as long as you can prove it. Wolf has been cried too many times for the charge to be believable without proof. > [@](#): > > Well, the records are temporarily sealed, as noted above, and even if they weren’t, at this stage of the case they would not reflect any evidence, that comes later. But as a lawyer I can tell you, you just don’t file a lawsuit unless you’ve got **some** proof to offer relating to a justiciable claim; the court can sanction you for filing a frivolous suit. Like I said, I hope he’s right. If he’s wrong he’s just going to piss people off, because from all appearances this is an attempt to sway the upcoming election by insinuating that the last one was a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/9 "2006-07-17T14:31:49Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > That’s disingenuous. They have to prove that there was some sort of fraud in the past to make the case that there will be fraud in the future, otherwise they will be preventing nothing of the sort in the coming election. To win this case, they don’t have to prove “fraud” in the sense of vote-rigging, they only need prove Diebold sold these machines, guaranteed “unhackable,” knowing that they **could** be rigged. That should be enough to get their use discontinued. The question is whether that can be accomplished by November. And no, I don’t believe for a moment the suit is intended to **sway** any votes in November, only to ensure an honest count of vote. That’s what the “black-box voting” movement is all about and always has been. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/10 "2006-07-17T14:34:54Z")
All of us, regardless of political persuasion, should be in favor of totally honest elections. Black box voting is a giant step away from this. I’m not quite enough of a geek to fully understand the technical details, but [the Diebold system appears to have some major security issues, as tested in Leon County.](http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0505/S00381.htm) > [@](#): > > 1. An altered memory card (electronic ballot box) was substituted for a real one. The optical scan machine performed seamlessly, issuing a report that looked like the real thing. No checksum captured the change in the executable program Diebold designed into the memory card. > > 2. A second altered memory card was demonstrated, using a program that was shorter than the original. It still worked, showing that there is also no check for the number of bytes in the program. > > 3. A third altered memory card was demonstrated with the votes themselves changed, showing that the data block (votes) can be altered without triggering any error message. > … > > The testing demonstrated, using the actual voting system used in a real elections office, that Diebold programmers developed a system that sacrifices security in favor of dangerously flexible programming, violating FEC standards and calling the actions of ITA testing labs and certifiers into question. The major manufacturer of voting equipment has failed to ensure adequate security for their machines. They have steadfastly refused to release their source code so that the security can be independently verified. You don’t need courtroom proof of past fraud to want to ensure that no furture fraud is possible. By stonewalling, Diebold casts doubt on themselves and one can’t help but wonder what their motivation is, particularly when the president of the corporation publicly pledged his support to Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/11 "2006-07-17T15:00:46Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > That’s disingenuous. They have to prove that there was some sort of fraud in the past to make the case that there will be fraud in the future, otherwise they will be preventing nothing of the sort in the coming election. So I have to be robbed before I can lock my door? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/12 "2006-07-17T15:10:42Z")
Airman, I’m as much as anyone of the opinion that accusations of vote fraud in 2004 and 2000 fail to meet a reasonable standard of evidence. However, I certainly do not want votes recorded or counted by a machine that is easy to hack, and I’ll be happy to see Diebold prove its security in court or be forced to improve it. If someone proves to me that the lock on a jail cell can be picked with a bobby pin, it doesn’t matter to me the no criminals had escaped _yet_…I want a better lock. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/13 "2006-07-17T15:11:00Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > That’s disingenuous. They have to prove that there was some sort of fraud in the past to make the case that there will be fraud in the future, otherwise they will be preventing nothing of the sort in the coming election. Wow - you have completely flown off the handle here. This knee-jerk response is completely at odds with the idea that you are not a Bushbot. Now, I don’t believe you are, but you need to step back and take a breath before dashing off another rant. This suit appears to be about whether or not Diebold fraudulently marketed its product, and not at all about what was or was not done with that product when it was in use. For my money, I hope that the outcome of this process is to tighten up the security on these and any other voting machines. However, I’m concerned that it is associated with RFK, Jr., I lost a lot of respect for him because of his position on autism and vaccines, where it seemed to me he was siding with the crazy conspiracists and against the weight of the empirical evidence. I hope that is not true of this matter as well. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/14 "2006-07-17T15:29:10Z")
**Airmam** , most of us are far from convinced that the Diebold macines actually produced fraudulent election results in 2004, but at VERY LEAST, there is significant doubt that accurate and fair results are guaranteed. Given the importance of elections in our democracy, any such doubts are totally unacceptable. As for “crying wolf”, that’s the problem. The Dems’ response to the 2004 election was very muted for fear they’d be accused of crying wolf in the wake of their failed attempt to get the results of the 2000 election overturned. If 2000 had been open-and-shut then concerns about 2004 would probably be taken more seriously. ---
**Author:** ![padabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@padabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/padabe)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/15 "2006-07-17T15:32:44Z")
I’m amazed they even made this assertion. Given enough time and resources, it seems to me that any device of this sort would be “hackable.” How do you prove that a device is “unhackable”? As opposed to possibly being very difficult and time-consuming to hack? The lawsuit should be a slam-dunk, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/16 "2006-07-17T15:37:38Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > For my money, I hope that the outcome of this process is to tighten up the security on these and any other voting machines. The surest way to do that is to equip the machine with an add-on that prints out a paper record as soon as you submit your on-screen vote, and deposits that paper in a sealed box with a glass top (so you can verify it reflects your votes accurately). That way, we still have the advantage of a really fast computerized vote tally, but if anything smells funny the boxes can be opened for a recount. Adding on that technology, invented (but never patented) 12 years ago by computer scientist Rebecca Mercuri, would cost a total of $300-600 per machine. See [here.](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040816/dugger/3) Maybe less with economies of scale. I think it would be money well spent. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/17 "2006-07-17T16:09:10Z")
I mean, since RFK is so well informed-just wondering where he got his info from? I doubt that kennedy has even an elementary grasp of highschool chemistry-but nevermind, he is an “activist”! ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/18 "2006-07-17T16:56:26Z")
There have been many tests and the machines are clearly hackable. They are the supplier for nmost of the country. ISS& the other major supplier is owned by the brother of Diebolds owner. There is reputed to have been a large meeting where the president of Diebold announced that their mission was to elect Bush. I would have thought a fair count would be. The Bradblog has coverered the story for a long time. It was a whistleblower inside Diebold that initiated the story. It has had legs which certainly gives an air of respect to the story. Many tests have rbeen run and the machines have big openings. Designed or not they are easily hacked. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/19 "2006-07-17T16:59:14Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I mean, since RFK is so well informed-just wondering where he got his info from? I doubt that kennedy has even an elementary grasp of highschool chemistry-but nevermind, he is an “activist”! RFK’s **firm** filed the suit – his level of personal involvement is not clear from the article. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848/20 "2006-07-17T17:00:15Z")
Sorry I didn’t make that clear in the thread title. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-files-whistleblower-suit-against-diebold/364848.md?page=2)