# RFK, Jr.: Investigate U.S. Attorney Tim Griffin for 2004 voter "caging lists" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333 "2007-05-09T01:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/1 "2007-05-09T01:09:23Z")
He’s also calling for investigation of Rove in the same matter. Story [here:](http://www.gregpalast.com/rfk-rove-and-roves-brain-should-be-in-jail-not-in-office) > [@](#): > > Timothy Griffin,” said Kennedy,”who is the new US attorney in Arkansas, was actually the mastermind behind the voter fraud efforts by the Bush Administration to disenfranchise over a million voters through ‘caging’ techniques - which are illegal.” > > Kennedy based his demand on the revelations by BBC reporter Greg Palast in the new edition of his book, “Armed Madhouse.” On one page of the book, Palast reproduces a copy of a confidential Bush-Cheney campaign email, dated August 26, 2004, in which Griffin directs Republican operatives to use the ‘caging’ lists. > > This is one of the emails subpoenaed by Congress but supposedly “lost” by Rove’s office. Palast obtained 500 of these, fifty with ‘caging’ lists attached. > > ‘Caging’ lists are “absolutely illegal” under the Voting Rights Act, noted Kennedy on his Air America program, Ring of Fire. The 1965 law makes it a felony crime to challenge voters when race is a factor in the targeting. African-American voters comprised the bulk of the 70,000 voters ‘caged’ in a single state, Florida. > > Palast wrote in his book, “Here’s how the scheme worked. The Bush campaign mailed out letters,” particularly targeting African-American soldiers sent overseas. When the letters sent to the home addresses of the soldiers came back “undeliverable” because the servicemen were in Baghdad or elsewhere, the Republican Party would, “challenge the voter’s registration and thereby prevent their absentee ballots being counted.” > > The Republicans successfully challenged “at least one million” votes of minority voters in the 2004 election. > > \ > > Kennedy has called on the Senate and House Judiciary Committees to expand their investigations of the firing of US Attorneys to include a probe of their replacements, especially Griffin, as well as Rove’s knowledge of the caging operation. Should the Judiciary Committees do as he urges? Is there any non-partisan justification for the use of these “caging lists”? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/2 "2007-05-09T01:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] He’s also calling for investigation of Rove in the same matter. Story [here:](http://www.gregpalast.com/rfk-rove-and-roves-brain-should-be-in-jail-not-in-office) Should the Judiciary Committees do as he urges? Is there any non-partisan justification for the use of these “caging lists”? [/QUOTE] Should we accept the claims made by the OP at face value? Should we base debate on obviously biased reporting? These are all good questions to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/3 "2007-05-09T01:39:53Z")
> **[Caging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caging)** > > Caging may refer to: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/4 "2007-05-09T01:45:51Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Should we base debate on obviously biased reporting? [/QUOTE] It was good enough for [BBC News.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm) Would you accuse the BBC of anti-Pub bias? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/5 "2007-05-09T01:59:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] It was good enough for [BBC News.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm) Would you accuse the BBC of anti-Pub bias? [/QUOTE] I’d like to see the evidence instead of just people talking about what the evidence proves. Certainly, it’s possibly true. I’ve no way of knowing except for what Kennedy says, and what Palast won’t show us, and I’m not going to buy his book just to see one email. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/6 "2007-05-09T02:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I’d like to see the evidence instead of just people talking about what the evidence proves. Certainly, it’s possibly true. I’ve no way of knowing except for what Kennedy says, and what Palast won’t show us, and I’m not going to buy his book just to see one email. [/QUOTE] You? YOU?!?! are not going to buy a Greg Palast book? I think I’m going to faint. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/7 "2007-05-09T02:22:18Z")
I think there should be a death penalty for acts such as are alleged. People have died defending the rights of people to vote and schemes like these make me sick. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/8 "2007-05-09T13:45:20Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Should we accept the claims made by the OP at face value? Should we base debate on obviously biased reporting? These are all good questions to ask. [/QUOTE] You’re so right, **Bricker**. America has been led astray before by biased reporters. Take that Murrow guy – he was definitely out to get Senator McCarthy, who only wanted to expose the extent of the Communist infiltration of the State Department and the Army Dentistry Corps. Or those guys who tried to defame President Nixon by claiming he was in some way connected to a burglary in some D.C. office complex, for Pete’s sake! Who ever heard of such a thing!! Freedom of the press never means the right to mount attacks on our anointed, God-given leaders! :eek: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/9 "2007-05-09T14:54:02Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] I think there should be a death penalty for acts such as are alleged. [/QUOTE] As hyperbolic as this sounds, I think there is a good case for precisely that. Perhaps undermining one of the foundations of the Republic is one of those things that none dare _call_ treason, but that doesn’t change what it is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/10 "2007-05-09T16:33:34Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I’d like to see the evidence instead of just people talking about what the evidence proves. Certainly, it’s possibly true. I’ve no way of knowing except for what Kennedy says, and what Palast won’t show us, and I’m not going to buy his book just to see one email. [/QUOTE] I’ve got the book somewhere – I’ll try to dig it out. (Assuming the referenced material is in my copy – the story linked in the OP refers to a “new edition.”) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/11 "2007-05-09T23:51:19Z")
The fact that a piece of reporting makes your guys look bad is not prima facie evidence that it’s “obviously biased”. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/12 "2007-05-10T14:44:47Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] As hyperbolic as this sounds, I think there is a good case for precisely that. [/QUOTE] It’s a hijack, but I agree with this. Our electoral system should be sacred and any tampering should be met with the strongest censure available, aka execution. And I’m not a fan of the death penalty, generally. If there were a legitimate discussion about making organized vote tampering or other deliberate manipulation a capital crime, I’d be willing to make an exception to my opposition. Nothing is more important than this. Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/13 "2007-05-10T15:23:04Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I’d like to see the evidence instead of just people talking about what the evidence proves. Certainly, it’s possibly true. I’ve no way of knowing except for what Kennedy says, and what Palast won’t show us, and I’m not going to buy his book just to see one email. [/QUOTE] Sounds like maybe the appropriate Congressional committee should buy a few copies, to reach their own conclusion about there’s anything worth investigating. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/14 "2007-05-10T15:56:27Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] The fact that a piece of reporting makes your guys look bad is not prima facie evidence that it’s “obviously biased”. [/QUOTE] It is if it gets posted to the SDMB. Especially if it is part XLMCVIII of the “Republicans stole the election!!!” thread that has been running since November 2000 in one form or another. > [@Polycarp](#): > > You’re so right, Bricker. America has been led astray before by biased reporters. We sure have. Fortunately, conservative bloggers wer able to prove that the documents were forged. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/15 "2007-05-10T16:02:35Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] We sure have. Fortunately, conservative bloggers wer able to prove that the documents were forged. [/QUOTE] Rather, they cannot be proven to be authentic. The words in the document itself were undeniable. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/16 "2007-05-10T16:04:43Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] It is if it gets posted to the SDMB. [/quote] You never get tired of this whiny bullshit, do you? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Fortunately, conservative bloggers wer able to prove that the documents were forged. _Un_fortunately, that had nothing to do with the fact of Bush’s desertion, although it certainly made for a convenient red herring for those of you trying to wish it away. But you know that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/17 "2007-05-10T19:03:39Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] Rather, they cannot be proven to be authentic. The words in the document itself were undeniable. [/QUOTE] Yes, there were certainly words in the document, just like there are words in _The Protocols of the Elders of Zion_, which has also not been proven to be authentic. All it takes is the assumption that there really is a cabal of Jews attempting to rule the world, and all those unfortunate problems with credibility, forgery, fraud, and dishonesty drop away. Assuming that Dan Rather and CBS News are the equivalent of the Czar’s secret police, which is much less of a stretch than usual for the Usual Suspects. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/18 "2007-05-10T19:14:46Z")
I am all ready to get my panties in a twist of major proportions but, before I do, I 'd like to know how Palast got his hands on these purged e-mails. Does he name his source or at least say why he thinks his source is reliable? How did an English journalist end up with documents that can’t even be gotten by Congress with a subpoena? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/19 "2007-05-10T19:46:46Z")
Note to **Shodan** : Dan Rather wasn’t running for President, and wasn’t a deserter. \*He \* didn’t matter. Bush _was_, and _did_. The extensive other evidence that existed prior to the forgery still existed afterward, ya know. [Here, let Cecil 'splain it to ya.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html) Clear now? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333/20 "2007-05-10T19:52:48Z")
[QUOTE=Biggirl] How did an English journalist end up with documents that can’t even be gotten by Congress with a subpoena? [/QUOTE] It’s that sweet accent! > [@DanBlather](#): > > I think there should be a death penalty for acts such as are alleged. People have died defending the rights of people to vote and schemes like these make me sick. While I don’t support the death penalty no matter what, I do agree that this would qualify as treason under my definition of the word. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rfk-jr-investigate-u-s-attorney-tim-griffin-for-2004-voter-caging-lists/403333.md?page=2)