# Rhodes Will Not Fall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559 "2016-01-29T07:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/21 "2016-01-29T15:58:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We’re talking about someone who lived almost entirely in the 19th century. While true, his views on race, imperialism and how much black lives mattered were not middle of the road even in his own time. He came under frequent criticism for his attitudes to Africans. E.g.: > [@](#): > > Yet although many people at the time saw Rhodes as a man of great vision, an unconquerable leader with the ability to pursue his aims across the vast African continent, there were nonetheless dissident voices who were shocked by Rhodes’ actions and those of his British South Africa Company. One such voice was that of Olive Schreiner, who, initially awed by Rhodes, had come to abhor him. In April of 1897 she wrote, in a letter to her friend, John Merriman: > > “We fight Rhodes because he means so much of oppression, injustice, & moral degradation to South Africa; - but if he passed away tomorrow there still remains the terrible fact that something in our society has formed the matrix which has fed, nourished, built up such a man!” Henry Labouchere, one of Rhodes’ fiercest critics (and an raging anti-semite to boot) wrote “Brown Man’s Burden” in response to Kipling’s poem and it shows quite a different take on Imperialism: > [@](#): > > Pile on the brown man’s burden; > And, if ye rouse his hate, > Meet his old-fashioned reasons > With Maxims up to date. > With shells and dumdum bullets > A hundred times made plain > The brown man’s loss must ever > Imply the white man’s gain. > > … > > Pile on the brown man’s burden, > And through the world proclaim > That ye are Freedom’s agent– > There’s no more paying game! > And, should your own past history > Straight in your teeth be thrown, > Retort that independence > Is good for whites alone. Rhodes morals were \*\*not \*\*those of his contemporaries. Many would have agreed that “Whites” were to superior to "Blacks, sure - but very few murdered them wholesale to steal their land. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/22 "2016-01-29T16:05:42Z")
Anyhow, I think this has been highly educational for all involved: Why did Rhodes get a statue put up? Because he was extremely rich. Why is the statue staying up? Because the people who want it to stay up are extremely rich. You might have thought this was a debate about free speech, safe spaces, contemporary vs current morality or the value and meaning of historic art. It was none of those things. Any ancillary questions which have been raised on those issues remain unsettled. It was a competition to see who had the most money, pure and simple. That this reflects badly on Oriel, who have pretensions towards being part of the Academy, is less important than the money. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/23 "2016-01-29T16:07:45Z")
Put the statue in a museum. Problem solved. Public memorials should be for honoring people our society wants to honor. If who we want to honor changes, we can change the memorials without forgetting history. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/24 "2016-01-29T16:18:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Put the statue in a museum. Problem solved. Public memorials should be for honoring people our society wants to honor. If who we want to honor changes, we can change the memorials without forgetting history. Yeah. I think it’s important that we don’t pretend Oriel never took shitload of cash from a mass-murdering racist without so much as blinking, but there’s also no need to give a mass-murdering racist pride of place in the institution just because he gave it a shitload of cash. That said, the problem has been solved by the simple expedient of counting the money. But your suggestion is good too. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/25 "2016-01-29T16:57:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think it depends on why you want the statue. Where we’re going, we don’t need Rhodes. That reference would have worked better last year. > [@John Mace](#): > > We’re talking about someone who lived almost entirely in the 19th century. If we can tolerate FDR on Mt Rushmore despite the internment of Japanese-Americans in the 1940s, then I think we can tolerate Rhodes. Personally, I think FDR deserves to be on Mt Rushmore for helping to end the Russo-Japanese War. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/26 "2016-01-29T16:58:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Put the statue in a museum. Problem solved. Public memorials should be for honoring people our society wants to honor. If who we want to honor changes, we can change the memorials without forgetting history. Sounds good. The stature doesn’t need to cease to exist, but it can stop honoring Rhodes by being moved to a new location and a new context. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we can tolerate FDR on Mt Rushmore despite the internment of Japanese-Americans _in the 1940s_, then I think we can tolerate Rhodes. Wrong Roosevelt; Teddy is the one on Mt. Rushmore. > [@](#): > > Don’t put up any more statues of him, if it’s a serious problem, but use the ones that are already up to teach the fact that history and historical figures are full of not-so-nice stuff. How? Altering the statue? What do you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/27 "2016-01-29T17:00:50Z")
America was build on the efforts of mass murdering rascists, who took other peoples land and called it Manifest Destiny. Pretty much whenever the Native American interests clashed with the interests of money, money won out. Silly labels can be widely placed with 20/20 hindsight. Clearly enough people did not find Rhodes far enough beyond the civilized pale as to rule out putting up statues to him at the time. I don’t give a shit about the money but I am against removing historical statues due to modern revisionist politics - as always probably with some exceptions. I’m ultimately pragmatic… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/28 "2016-01-29T17:02:02Z")
Put [Scary Lucy statue](http://www.pressherald.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/617263_Lucille-Ball-Hometown_Byun.jpg) next to him. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/29 "2016-01-29T17:09:33Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think that was me rather than JacobSwan that you were replying to, I think his quoting tags got mangled. > > In any case, most art is not David, most art is not a work of sublime genius. It is a bad yardstick to use. All art will offend someone, or at least fail to inspire them. In fact it may downright repulse them. I can find myriad works that I consider worthless or offensive but I don’t think my opinion has any bearing on whether they should exist or not. > > [Workmanlike bronzes you say?](https://news.artnet.com/art-world/wall-streets-bronze-bull-celebrates-25th-anniversary-198768) > > [Shitty murals you say?](https://northernsong.wordpress.com/2010/05/13/religions-murals-and-stability-in-identity-formation/) > > Difficult to argue that either of those display great, technical artistic ability but they do have meaning and merit. _Sculptures_ are art, _statues_ are dead politicians. There is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/30 "2016-01-29T17:17:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We’re talking about someone who lived almost entirely in the 19th century. If we can tolerate FDR on Mt Rushmore despite the internment of Japanese-Americans _in the 1940s_, then I think we can tolerate Rhodes. Don’t put up any more statues of him, if it’s a serious problem, but use the ones that are already up to teach the fact that history and historical figures are full of not-so-nice stuff. Nitpick: you’ve got the wrong Roosevelt on Rushmore. 🙂 More substantially I agree with Malden Capell. The key point is why he is being honored. If you made a list of the accomplishments that put FDR in the history books, It would be his leadership of the US during WW2 and the depression. His treatment of the Japanese Americans, while tragic, would be a side note. If Roosevelt hadn’t interred the Japanese Americans his fame would not be affected a single bit. By putting a monument to him up on the Mall (not Rushmore) , we are honoring his primary accomplishments which are still viewed favorably, even if he has some acts that stains his character. Similarly with the examples of Washington, Shakespeare, Churchill and Gandhi. The criticism against them is secondary to their main contribution to history. With Rhodes, his primary contribution to history was his exploitation of South Africa. Without that part of his legacy he would be a nobody. Therefor it is difficult to honor him without in effect honoring his primary accomplishments which are not worthy of honor. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/31 "2016-01-29T17:27:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sounds good. The stature doesn’t need to cease to exist, but it can stop honoring Rhodes by being moved to a new location and a new context. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/32 "2016-01-29T17:33:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we can tolerate FDR on Mt Rushmore … Well, but that’s because he defended us after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/33 "2016-01-29T17:36:11Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > _Sculptures_ are art, _statues_ are dead politicians. There is a difference. I don’t think so. A sculpture can be a statue, the difference is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/34 "2016-01-29T17:52:10Z")
The idea that not keeping statues of morally questionable people on public display is some kind of historical cleansing, is being echoed right now in Georgia (the U.S. one, for you furriners). A Georgia state representative, Tommy Benton, has introduced a bill to [keep pro-Confederate displays at Stone Mountain intact](http://investigations.blog.ajc.com/2016/01/28/ga-lawmaker-seeks-constitutional-protection-for-stone-mountain-carving/), lest we engage in “cultural terrorism”. He also thinks the Klan was misunderstood. \*"Benton said there are two sides to that story as well. The Klan “was not so much a racist thing but a vigilante thing to keep law and order,” he said. “It made a lot of people straighten up,” he said. “I’m not saying what they did was right. It’s just the way things were.”"\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/35 "2016-01-29T18:38:21Z")
Benton is “a retired middle school history teacher.” FFS. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/36 "2016-01-29T18:56:14Z")
I think in their own countries, Africans should be able to remove or put up whatever statue they want. If we’re talking about Oxford in England, they can call the statue a part of history and leave it up. And just for fun, I also think that Confederate statues in the US should all be removed from public lands, even if the local state or county wants them up. And both of these opinions are not contradictory to each other ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/37 "2016-01-29T19:01:22Z")
I think that in their own country, English people should be able to remove put up whatever statue they want. Has someone proposed that the decision be made by Africans? I must have missed that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/38 "2016-01-29T19:10:45Z")
At least one of the leaders of the movement among the student body is an African student. But he’s _attending_ Oxford, so I think he has as much say as anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/39 "2016-01-29T19:11:46Z")
Who actually makes the decision? A vote by the students? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/40 "2016-01-29T19:14:24Z")
Probably the provost in consultation with the faculty board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559.md?page=3)