# Rhodes Will Not Fall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559 "2016-01-29T07:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/41 "2016-01-29T19:17:57Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Anyhow, I think this has been highly educational for all involved: > > Why did Rhodes get a statue put up? Because he was extremely rich. > Why is the statue staying up? Because the people who want it to stay up are extremely rich. > > You might have thought this was a debate about free speech, safe spaces, contemporary vs current morality or the value and meaning of historic art. It was none of those things. Any ancillary questions which have been raised on those issues remain unsettled. It was a competition to see who had the most money, pure and simple. That this reflects badly on Oriel, who have pretensions towards being part of the Academy, is less important than the money. This only makes sense if you’re selective about public opinion and assume only rich donors want the statue to remain. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/42 "2016-01-29T19:23:41Z")
Is there any evidence that the majority of small donors give a shit either way? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/43 "2016-01-29T19:37:39Z")
Tearing down historical monuments because you don’t like their message is no different from Al Qaida destroying Buddhist statues or ISIS destroying Babylonian artifacts. It’s bad. Not quite Hitler bad, but not like anybody you want to be. We’re better than this. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/44 "2016-01-29T19:40:15Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Tearing down historical monuments because you don’t like their message is no different from Al Qaida destroying Buddhist statues or ISIS destroying Babylonian artifacts. It’s bad. Not quite Hitler bad, but not like anybody you want to be. We’re better than this. If it’s done by a mob, then yes. If it’s done by the same institution that put it up in the first place, then no. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/45 "2016-01-29T19:40:49Z")
A shitty bronze of Cecil Rhodes is not quite the same as Petra. But I agree that in any case the statue should not be _destroyed_, just moved. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/46 "2016-01-29T19:55:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Tearing down historical monuments because you don’t like their message is no different from Al Qaida destroying Buddhist statues or ISIS destroying Babylonian artifacts. Actually, it’s completely different. No one’s proposing to remove the statue as attack on Christianity or whiteness. Further, the Rhodes statue is from 1908, it’s not an ancient artifact. Lastly, there’s no need to destroy it, it can merely be relocated. The dead hand of the past needn’t compel us to accept the status quo for its own sake. We can make our own decisions in the here and now as to what messages should be endorsed by a major university, and which should not. > [@DrCube](#): > > It’s bad. Not quite Hitler bad, but not like anybody you want to be. We’re better than this. I wouldn’t have a problem with being one of the East Germans who removed statues of Lenin after the reunification. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/47 "2016-01-29T20:07:24Z")
Or an Iraqi who tore down a statute of Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/48 "2016-01-29T20:37:06Z")
Absolutely. There’s no obligation to keep something like that in place, just because it’s been there for a while. Of note: in Germany, the head of a Lenin statue was just excavated and placed…in a “museum exhibit of key figures that played a role in Germany’s turbulent history”.]([Granite head of Lenin unearthed for new Berlin exhibition | Vladimir Lenin | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/10/lenin-granite-head-berlin-exhibition-german)) The Communist occupation isn’t being scrubbed from German history, it’s simply not celebrated or honored. Seems like a fine model for Oxford, Georgia, and the rest to follow. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/49 "2016-01-29T20:41:42Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Tearing down historical monuments because you don’t like their message is no different from Al Qaida destroying Buddhist statues or ISIS destroying Babylonian artifacts. It’s bad. Not quite Hitler bad, but not like anybody you want to be. We’re better than this. The other side of this being, just because a statue is up, it has to stay there forever? There’s no reason why present culture cannot remove something they consider offensive, for any reason, if its their statue. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/50 "2016-01-29T20:50:00Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > The other side of this being, just because a statue is up, it has to stay there forever? There’s no reason why present culture cannot remove something they consider offensive, for any reason, if its their statue. Of course, but ‘present culture’ to my understanding doesn’t want it to go, so that’s moot. It might change at some point in the future of course and that’s fair enough. To those who have suggested they ‘just relocate’ the statue…relocate it to where, exactly? What other public place would be less obnoxious to people than at Oriel? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/51 "2016-01-29T20:54:58Z")
The University Parks? Some dusty corner of the Ashmolean? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/52 "2016-01-29T20:55:33Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > To those who have suggested they ‘just relocate’ the statue…relocate it to where, exactly? What other public place would be less obnoxious to people than at Oriel? [One of the university’s museums, perhaps?](http://www.ox.ac.uk/visitors/visiting-oxford/visiting-museums-libraries-places) Where the context is an exhibit about Rhodes, as opposed to a statue proclaiming what a great guy he was. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/53 "2016-01-29T20:58:05Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > This only makes sense if you’re selective about public opinion and assume only rich donors want the statue to remain. I’m sure lots of people want the statue to remain who are not donors, or not rich, or neither rich nor donors. But Oriel had been quite clear: the statue stays to protect the big donations. That’s the sole reason they gave. Not popular opinion, not the rights and wins of the matter, just the risk of losing the cash. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/54 "2016-01-29T20:59:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **Malden Capell** > I don’t think a comparison with Hitler is entirely fair, although I can understand the basis of what you say. But everything about Hitler, his ambitions, achievements, ideology, everything, is rightly decried and disgraced. But even a piece of work like Rhodes had some positive impact. I can see an argument for tearing down statues in South Africa, which suffered under him, but not in the UK necessarily. I agree it should come down in South Africa, absolutely, and elsewhere in Africa, but in the UK? Absolutely not. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/55 "2016-01-29T21:24:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I agree it should come down in South Africa, absolutely, and elsewhere in Africa, but in the UK? Absolutely not. Would you mind elaborating on why you hold this view? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/56 "2016-01-30T01:27:36Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > The other side of this being, just because a statue is up, it has to stay there forever? Yes, unless there’s a statue of limitations. (b’DOOM _kssh_) ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/57 "2016-01-30T03:05:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Mao . There are plenty of statues of Mao still standing in China. Theres a rather famous one in Shanghai where is peering directly across at the massive skyscrapers of banks and insurance companies across the river. The irony is somewhat evident. [![](https://traveldroppings.com/articles/explore/china/images/mao-looking-at-his-success.jpg) ](https://traveldroppings.com/articles/explore/china/images/mao-looking-at-his-success.jpg) And yes the statue should stay. If we are going to remove statues of “problematic” historical figures we’d also have to remove Queen Victoria and many others. Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/58 "2016-01-30T03:31:00Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And no, If there were still statues of Stalin, Hitler or Mao I’d have no problem with people keeping them standing for exactly those same reasons… I don’t know about Mao, but Stalin is still very popular in Russia (and even more so Georgia, actually), so I would imagine there are still a lot of statues of him around. > **[Stalin Rises From the Ashes in Putin's Russia](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/archive/stalin-rises-from-the-ashes-in-putins-russia)** > > A Levada Center poll published last month shows that a growing number of Russian citizens regard former Soviet leader Josef Stalin in a positive light. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/59 "2016-01-30T03:46:52Z")
And here’s a statue of Hitler: > **[Controversy over Adolf Hitler statue in Warsaw ghetto](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/28/adolf-hitler-statue-warsaw-ghetto)** > > Jewish group describes statue's placement – which was not opposed by Poland's chief rabbi – as 'senseless provocation' So yes there are still statues of Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Theres also a massive statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia even though he killed millions of people. > **[Equestrian statue of Genghis Khan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan_Equestrian_Statue)** > > The Genghis Khan Equestrian Statue, part of the Genghis Khan Statue Complex, is a 40-metre (130 ft) tall, stainless steel statue of Genghis Khan on horseback and the world's tallest equestrian statue. It is located on the bank of the Tuul River at Tsonjin Boldog, 54 km (33.55 mi) east of the Mongolian capital Ulaanbaatar, where, according to legend, he found a golden whip. The statue is symbolically pointed east towards his birthplace. It is on top of the Genghis Khan Statue Complex, a visito Vi... ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/60 "2016-01-30T04:21:14Z")
[An interesting and funny video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Rc0OfEkRE) about heroes and statues in which Rodhes’ one is mentioned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559.md?page=4)