# Rhodes Will Not Fall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559 "2016-01-29T07:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/61 "2016-01-30T05:02:23Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > And here’s a statue of Hitler: > [Controversy over Adolf Hitler statue in Warsaw ghetto | Adolf Hitler | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/28/adolf-hitler-statue-warsaw-ghetto) > > So yes there are still statues of Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Theres also a massive statue of Genghis Khan in Mongolia even though he killed millions of people. > > [Equestrian statue of Genghis Khan - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan_Equestrian_Statue) There was actually a “Miss Hitler” beauty pageant in the Ukraine a year or two ago, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/62 "2016-01-30T06:15:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > There was actually a “Miss Hitler” beauty pageant in the Ukraine a year or two ago, IIRC. Not to mention Hitler seems to be making somewhat of a comeback as a fashion statement in South East Asia. [https://www.google.co.th/search?q=thailand+hitler+t+shirts&espv=2&biw=1773&bih=1082&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivrMDu8dDKAhWCC44KHUVGAKsQsAQIGQ](https://www.google.co.th/search?q=thailand+hitler+t+shirts&espv=2&biw=1773&bih=1082&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivrMDu8dDKAhWCC44KHUVGAKsQsAQIGQ) The people wearing these are not neo-nazi’s. To them its just edgy street wear. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/63 "2016-01-30T09:23:00Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think that was me rather than JacobSwan that you were replying to, I think his quoting tags got mangled. Yes, I think it was because of the broken quote in the post i replied to > [@](#): > > In any case, most art is not David, most art is not a work of sublime genius. It is a bad yardstick to use. Artistic merit was the yardstick you brought into it just by saying “it’s a piece of art and therefore shouldn’t be destroyed”, which implies it’s OK to destroy non-art objects, I’m just quibbling on the level of merit. You seemed to be setting it at “any art”, which I’m trying to argue against (by hyperbole with the David reference) I’m not saying _this_ art should be destroyed, but I’m saying its status as art, _itself_, is not a reason to keep it. Unwanted art can, and I would argue should, be destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/64 "2016-01-30T10:32:47Z")
The truth is the college cannot take it down there is a preservation order in it. You find that the protest is lead by leftwing students of which there are many in Oxford. Rhodes was a man of Victorian Britain a man of his time, a time when the working man was down trodden and abused. The colonials believed that what they could get away with at home they could do so abroad, at that time Africa was a brutal place where slavery among the Africans was common practice for hundreds of years. I am not making excuses for Rhodes but judge him not by modern day standards but by the time in which he lived ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/65 "2016-01-30T11:18:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Wrong Roosevelt; Teddy is the one on Mt. Rushmore. Never saw Animal House, I take it? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/66 "2016-01-30T13:35:02Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > at that time Africa was a brutal place where slavery among the Africans was common practice for hundreds of years NOT in the parts Rhodes operated in. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/67 "2016-01-30T14:20:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Artistic merit was the yardstick you brought into it I very, very carefully did not. > [@](#): > > just by saying “it’s a piece of art and therefore shouldn’t be destroyed”, which implies it’s OK to destroy non-art objects, . If you want me to stick my neck out and say that destroying a non-artistic “object” is allowable then I will, I hope it isn’t controversial that I place works of art in a different category to, as yet unspecified, “objects” > [@](#): > > I’m just quibbling on the level of merit. You seemed to be setting it at “any art”, which I’m trying to argue against (by hyperbole with the David reference) yes, _any_ art, not any _“good” or “bad”_ art. Nothing I wrote makes any judgement on the merit of the piece. I did that on purpose. You are the one setting yourself up as arbiter of what is good and bad. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying _this_ art should be destroyed, but I’m saying its status as art, _itself_, is not a reason to keep it. Unwanted art can, and I would argue should, be destroyed. And I suggest we should be very careful before we leap to do so, plus I draw your attention to the qualifier used…_ **unwanted** _. This is clearly not the case for this statue. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/68 "2016-01-30T16:05:12Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > The other side of this being, just because a statue is up, it has to stay there forever? There’s no reason why present culture cannot remove something they consider offensive, for any reason, if its their statue. I don’t have a problem with moving it, to be honest. I thought this was about destroying it. My mistake. Putting it in a museum would be okay. I get more frustrated by calls to sandblast Stone Mountain. You can’t put that in a museum. You could build a museum around it, I suppose, like Monk’s Mound. I have a problem destroying art for political reasons. Period. Should we level Monk’s Mound because the Cahokians practiced human sacrifice? Obviously if it isn’t of significant importance and the owner is okay with it, I imagine I’d be okay with a lot of art being destroyed. For example, there’s a fundraising event here called Art Attack, where they auction off art and whatever doesn’t sell gets chainsawed to pieces. For charity. That’s cool. But not for political reasons, and not when it isn’t yours. And especially not when it is “history”, which I would consider a hundred year old statue to be. It represents a mindset that for good reason doesn’t exist anymore. Let’s learn from history, not close our eyes and pretend it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/69 "2016-01-30T18:55:43Z")
I don’t buy the “whitewashing history” argument. Nobody is proposing Rhodes be excised from the historical record, just that he stop being literally idolized. Taking down this statue doesn’t mean people stop learning of the horrors that went down in Rhodesia. If anything, leaving it up is a distortion of history, because it gives most casual viewers who haven’t studied this exceptionally brutal chapter in colonial history the impression that Rhodes is an admirable person - after all, they put a statue up to him, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/70 "2016-01-30T19:27:19Z")
The statue is a decoration. People redecorate all the time. If the college doesn’t find the image of Mr. Rhodes to be a pleasing decoration (and I can see why they wouldn’t), I don’t see why they should be forced to keep it into perpetuity. Is there something sacred about decorations with people on them or something? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/71 "2016-01-30T20:05:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I have a problem destroying art for political reasons. Period. Should we level Monk’s Mound because the Cahokians practiced human sacrifice? Monk’s mound has an historical interest. I doubt that this statue has any. It’s not like bronze statues of 19th century people are a rarity. It doesn’t appear that it’s a famous masterpiece that art lovers from all over the world want to preserve due the sculptor’s incredible talent, either. I’m pretty sure it’s value as “art” is close to zero, and so is its historical value. What should count as “art” worth protecting can be debated endlessly. It happens all the time (at least over here, but I’m pretty sure also in all other countries) when the issue of destroying a somewhat old building of some significance is discussed, for instance. I don’t think such a statue really qualifies. It hasn’t been build in order to, say, express profound ideas, display the exquisite skills of the sculptor, enhance the splendor of the university building, or anything like that. It has been build in order to honour a man. That’s the reason for its existence. If this man not just doesn’t deserve to be honoured but in fact deserve to be reviled, then I’ve no issue with removing it or even destroying it, at the contrary. As pointed out previously, many statues of Stalin have been destroyed, and it doesn’t bother me the slighest bit. Does it bother you? Why would it be different for this guy? What exactly are we losing if we melt the statue? What good reason do we have to keep it? ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/72 "2016-01-30T21:53:49Z")
Nobody can remove the statue it has a preservation order on it ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/73 "2016-01-31T02:44:51Z")
Seems like an easy solution would be to just put a sign underneath the statue explaining why the statue is there and the controversial aspects of Rhodes life. Done. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/74 "2016-01-31T03:19:57Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Nobody can remove the statue it has a preservation order on it Do you have a cite for this claim? I did some searching and found no references to a preservation order. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/75 "2016-01-31T07:44:27Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Seems like an easy solution would be to just put a sign underneath the statue explaining why the statue is there and the controversial aspects of Rhodes life. Done. Melting it down for scrap is also pretty easy. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/76 "2016-01-31T07:57:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Melting it down for scrap is also pretty easy. Oriel College is a Grade 1 listed building. No melting it down for scrap is not easy, its protected. > **[Grade I listed buildings in Oxford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_I_listed_buildings_in_Oxford)** > > Download coordinates as: > There are more than 9,000 Grade I listed buildings in England. This page is a list of these buildings in the district of Oxford in Oxfordshire. > **[Listed building](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listed_building)** > > In the United Kingdom, a listed building\[a\] is a structure of particular architectural and/or historic interest deserving of special protection. Such buildings are placed on one of the four statutory lists maintained by Historic England in England, Historic Environment Scotland in Scotland, Cadw in Wales, and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency in Northern Ireland. The classification schemes differ between England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland (see sections below). The term ha... You cannot change anything at all about a listed buildings appearance without getting special permission. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/77 "2016-01-31T08:54:46Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I agree with the decision. Like him or not Rhodes was historically important. Take statues down because some people don’t like what the person in question did and pretty soon we won’t have any statues left. All this is much like what happens with Columbus every October–statues get vandalized. I appreciate and understand why this happens, but it saddens me to hear of some 150-year-old full-size portrait statue has been irreparably damaged. They don’t make things like that anymore. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Columbus, OH and GA eventually have to change their names. It seems hypocritical not to do so, and at the same time insist that Southern states discontinue using flags reminiscent of the CSA. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/78 "2016-01-31T09:03:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We’re talking about someone who lived almost entirely in the 19th century. If we can tolerate FDR on Mt Rushmore despite the internment of Japanese-Americans _in the 1940s_, then I think we can tolerate Rhodes. Don’t put up any more statues of him, if it’s a serious problem, but use the ones that are already up to teach the fact that history and historical figures are full of not-so-nice stuff. Or like FDR, how about his distant cousin Theodore, who used to shoot big game and have it skinned or stuffed for trophies? Most people seem absolutely horrified by any kind of hunting, but usually seem more than able to completely gloss over the root causes of habitat loss, which has been the real threat to wildlife. I’m not saying poaching isn’t a problem, but habitat loss is more devastating. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/79 "2016-01-31T15:34:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you have a cite for this claim? I did some searching and found no references to a preservation order. It was a TV news interview with the local authority, I live in the U.K. aprox. 50 miles from Oxford so have seen coverage on news media. It is really a none story blown out of proportion by students ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559/80 "2016-01-31T16:55:53Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Most people seem absolutely horrified by any kind of hunting They are? I’m pretty sure most people are fine with deer and gamebird hunting, at least in North America. Maybe less so in some other countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhodes-will-not-fall/744559.md?page=5)