# Rhyme question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 10, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556 "2003-07-10T21:03:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/21 "2003-07-12T10:38:26Z")
But Gran, man and pan don’t have the long “a” as in father, **jr8**. The a and e sounds in those groups of words sound much closer to each other in certain accents than others. To my ears they sound pretty close in Dutch and American accents, but are very different in British English (especially as spoken in the north where I’m from). I hope **Zeldar** won’t mind me giving the secret away, **gum** , but he’s playing a little game with you when he mentions “fish” and “ghoti”. The point is that ghoti isn’t a real word, but one that is invented to illustrate some irregularities in English spelling/pronunciation. Remember that in some of those -ough words, the gh sounds like an f. Then notice that the o in women sounds like an i. Then see that the ti in words ending -tion sound like the sh combination. Add them together – gh-o-ti – and you get f-i-sh :). ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/22 "2003-07-12T17:26:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by zeldar_ > One of the most peculiar (to me anyway) is how the -og sound varies. You’ll find that fog, log, cog, hog may all sound alike, but then dog is usually different. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by gum_ > **Zeldar** To me, fog, log, cog, hog and dog sound exactly alike. Yep, I do have a lot to learn. Don’t worry. In my Australian accent, fog, log, cog, hog and dog all end in the same og sound. I think Americans must just be weird in this aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/23 "2003-07-12T17:38:11Z")
In the South, “dog” is prononounced “dawg.” In the North, it comes as two syllables sorta like “dooooo-ug.” Also, in the South, words that have a short “e” (the “eh” sound) preceding an “m” or “n” are typically pronounced as short “i,” thus “pin” and “pen” end (or “ind”) up sounding exactly the same. Don’t know how it goes in other regions, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/24 "2003-07-12T17:46:16Z")
**Earl Snake-Hips Tucker** , Perhaps we should elucidate others on the correct, accent-free pronunciations of other grossly mis-pronounced words: Fire – has one syllable and is pronounced as a cross between “far” and “fair”, unless used in the sense of “fire tower” in which case it is “far tar.” Flower – One syllable. Cross between “flare” and “flier” Take it away, Earl… ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/25 "2003-07-12T18:36:12Z")
\*hehehehe \* Now _what_ am I supposed to do when rhyming on an international website? 😉 How about the word ‘iron’? Where did the **r** go, when pronouncing it? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/26 "2003-07-12T19:12:33Z")
Actually, **gum** , it’s got plenty of “r” in it, just no “i” to speak of. Try “arrrn” by leaving off the “f” in “far” and stretching the “-arr” out a bit before adding the “n” at the end. Better yet, just leave the “b” off of “barn” for the _correct_ pronunciation. Any others you having trouble with? Words ending in -ight like night, light, flight, bright, or similarly mis-pronounced words like kite, height, sleight, must all be said with the “i” made into a cross between “a” (as in flat, hat, rat) and the “i” in words like hit, spit, writ, kit. It takes practice and proper regional exposure to get the proper “i” sound. One word almost universally mispronounced is “water.” It’s best to try for “waw-tuh” (no “r” at the end). But my favorite is “area” which is heavily accented on the first syllable and goes “AY-ree-yuh.” It’s often said as “err-ee-yuh” by poorly informed speakers. There are those who get close by swallowing the last two syllables and have it something like “AY-ruh.” You just need to spend a little time in places like Charleston (pronounced “chaas-t’n” or Montgomery (mun-gum-ry) or New Orleans (Naw-luns) to be exposed to proper techniques. However, anywhere south of DC and east of New Mexico will be adequate for your studies. Whatever you do, stay out of the region vaguely described as “Midwest” since their mispronunciations have somehow become “standard” for broadcasting. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/27 "2003-07-12T21:38:40Z")
Gum, don’t pay any attention to Zeldar’s teasing – not if you are at all serious about your question! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/28 "2003-07-12T23:57:13Z")
I didn’t realize I spoke any differently than your average Southern Californian until the example of “cot” versus “caught” was raised in one of my linguistics classes. I’m one of the few people in this area that pronounces them with different vowels – but were I to use them in poetry, I would probably consider them as rhyming. Rhyming dictionaries are your friend – you’ll prolly have to decide between a dictionary published in America and one published in the UK, and be aware that these are based on whatever accent is considered “standard” (although really there is no such thing). My last phonology textbook was published in the UK, and it caused no end of trouble, even though the author tried to include American variations on pronunciation. To sum up: English is whack. Americans don’t pronounce “again” to rhyme with “rain” but are usually okay with verses that rhyme the two (and sometimes alter their pronunciation to make em sound the same). It doesn’t matter what dialect you choose your rhymes for, as long as you pick one and stick with it. (I’m sure most Francophones would wince at some of the rhymes I’ve put in my French poetry, not to mention trying to force French verses into English meter) ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/29 "2003-07-13T05:27:38Z")
**Zoe** Nah, only a tad serious. 🙂 Thank you all \*\* Straightdopers\*\* It’s heart-warming to see so many of you helping a poor putz out. [serious, here] **Zeldar** I have trouble with ‘everything’ . I think I know how to pronounce it, but the word leaves my tongue paralized. btw: _is_ there a word that rhymes with ‘orange’? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/30 "2003-07-13T05:43:46Z")
**gum** , thanks for seeing my kidding for what it was. I’ll try to return to some seriousness now after playing around with the sort of thing that Southerners get kidded about. To my knowledge, there’s no standard rhyme for orange in the English language, but somewhere in the back of my mind I think I did see an attempt at one somewhere. I’ll try to find that for you. Try ev-ry-thing. The second ‘e’ isn’t pronounced. Alternately, go with e-vry-thing. The ‘e’ is short as in best or west. Some will say the -vry- as -vree- but the short ‘i’ or ‘y’ is more common, I believe. The -thing would rhyme with sing, ring, bring, ding, etc. Now and then a singer will bring the second ‘e’ into a fourth syllable, so it becomes ev-e-ry-thing, but that isn’t normal in speech. I can only imagine the difficulties you must be facing, **gum** , with no audio to go with all this. If you can get hold of a Frank Sinatra record, doesn’t really matter which, his diction and pronunciation will be beneficial. One of the best vocalists for hearing every nuance to the words. Of course, spoken language records can be found as well. Having someone American and someone British speaking poetry or reading from some piece of literature for which you have written versions would be ideal. If there are other troublesome words or sounds you’re battling, I’ll try to deal with your next post in all seriousness. Thanks again for your sense of humor. Z ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556/31 "2003-07-13T09:44:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gum \* > \*\*btw: _is_ there a word that rhymes with ‘orange’? \*\* “Doorhinge.” It makes for very bad poetry. If in doubt, **gum** , get an English rhyming dictionary. Not only will it help in identifying comparable pronunciations, but it will point out rhyming words you might not otherwise have thought of, thus aiding in avoiding the usual cliches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rhyme-question/187556.md?page=1)