# RIAA to go after individual media downloaders very shortly - Is this wise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496 "2003-06-26T13:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/1 "2003-06-26T13:22:38Z")
Is this a wise strategy in the long run? Will music downloading people be sufficiently cowed by this direct threat of legal action that they will cease and desist or is the RIAA and the music industry risking a terrible backlash? Many people want the music/media industry to embrace pay per song or album or movie downloading and have a form of legalized Kazaa, but the music executives (with some degree of justification) see this as the eventual death knell for the relatively lucrative direct album sale model they have built their business on. While this may work to some degree per Apples (so far successful) experiment providing legal music downloads for a fee, the overall cash flow model is going to change drastically which will result in a big reshuffling of the traditional centers of power in the in the industry. This question of my OP is not about legal justification. I think there is enough precedent for them to go after file swappers (and quite possibly win) if they are so inclined, the issue is more a strategic one. Is threatening your customer base a tenable strategy? Are the big downloaders the majority of whom are mainly (though certainly not exclusively) high school and college kids and 20 somethings, really going to be able to be organized enough to “punish” the music industry for doing this. From the Washington Post [RIAA Plans Lawsuits Against File Traders](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30875-2003Jun25.html?nav=hptop_tb) Part of longer article > [@](#): > > The chief lobby group of the nation’s major recording labels today said it would file hundreds of lawsuits against Internet users who illegally trade copyrighted music files. > > The lawsuits will target people who share “substantial” amounts of copyrighted music, but anyone who shares illegal files is at risk, RIAA President Cary Sherman said in a conference call today. The first round of lawsuits will be prepared during the next eight to 10 weeks. They will ask for injunctions and monetary damages against file swappers, Sherman said. > > “We have no hard and fast rules about how many files you have to be distributing” to be targeted in the RIAA sweep, he said. “Any individual computer user who continues to steal music will face the very real risk of having to face the music.” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/2 "2003-06-26T13:30:43Z")
How long until we see a rise in file-sharing programs that offer privacy features? It’s not too hard to be anonymous on the Internet, and if dissidents in China can do it, pirates can do it to. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/3 "2003-06-26T13:32:20Z")
Briefly: No, it’s not really a good idea to sue your customer base randomly and at large. Especially since the age of purchasing CDs the most… teens and college… is also the age of doing mildly illegal stuff the most. So… Eh, they’re as dead as player piano tape makers. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/4 "2003-06-26T13:58:35Z")
My WAG: If it’s intended to make a few examples of downloaders, it won’t work. After all, we’ve all seen what happens in other venues (Prohibition, the drug war, TV license evasion in the UK) when heavy penalties are levied on a few to serve as an “example” to the rest: A few people languish in jail or pay hefty fines, while the rest of the offenders merrily continue as they always have, relatively safe in the knowledge that the chances of them being the ones to be caught will be minimal. Another WAG: The RIAA has a lot to lose if one of their lawsuits is successfully challenged in the courts. A high-profile loss would be extremely damaging to them in the court of public opinion. Last WAG: The RIAA will go after the small fry first. They’ll gain a couple of easy victories. Everyone will still hate them. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/5 "2003-06-26T14:18:09Z")
hearing about the file sharing lawsuits. did make me stop and think is it worth it, to not be sharing sometimes? no even when i browse i am leaving a filesharing client of some sort open to shar. the riaa is trying intimidation. i don’t respond well to that. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/6 "2003-06-26T15:42:25Z")
I was just about to start a thread on this. For the first time, it sounds like the RIAA is dead serious and not just mere sabre-rattling. Without going into specifics (obviously), I’ve already taken steps to protect myself (basically, staying off the file-sharing programs entirely, until this thing blows over) and I recommend everyone else do the same. As for the debate at hand…the RIAA is nuts. This thing is going to blow up in their face in such a HUGE way that it may even spell the end of the entire monolithic recording industry. At least, that’s what I’m _hoping_ will happen. The problem is, with the media gone completely to the Conservative side, and the public at large (Americans, anyway) being brainwashed by all these fake “Terror Alerts” and whatnot, there might not be much public resistance after all…or, if there is one, the media might not even report it. We live in scary times, people. Al-Qaeda is the least of our problems, now. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/7 "2003-06-26T17:22:38Z")
No, i’m waiting for some 12 year old kid to take them down, that will be hilarious. also > [@](#): > > Country songwriter Hugh Prestwood, who has worked with performers such as Randy Travis, Trisha Yearwood and Jimmy Buffett, likened the RIAA’s effort to a roadside police officer on a busy highway. > > “It doesn’t take too many tickets to get everybody to obey the speed limit,” Prestwood said. Yes, because no one speeds anymore :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/8 "2003-06-26T17:23:54Z")
My son told me that most likely the people sharing thousands of songs will be the ones that will get targeted first. Nothing to worry about guys, this is nothing but intimidation. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/9 "2003-06-26T17:50:32Z")
I’m a bit on the fence about this, but if I read this right, the Digital at Home Recording Act will make me jump right off. [http://www.virtualrecordings.com/ahra.htm](http://www.virtualrecordings.com/ahra.htm) It seems that a 2% tax has been place on all digital recording devices. This money is to be distributed to recording artists. From the AHRA > [@](#): > > (1) Amount of payment. > The royalty payment due under section 1003 for each digital audio recording device imported into and > distributed in the United States, or manufactured and distributed in the United States, shall be 2 percent > of the transfer price. Only the first person to manufacture and distribute or import and distribute such > device shall be required to pay the royalty with respect to such device. And this is interesting - > [@](#): > > Section 1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions > > No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings. IMNAL and just skimmed the document. Anyone have any insight into this? ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/10 "2003-06-26T17:56:12Z")
The RIAA has limited manpower. It will probably go after the users on the most pedestrian networks, like Kazaa and Gnutella. Users of less known sharing networks like Soulseek, giFT, Direct Connect, eDonkey, etc. etc. probably have nothing to fear. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Alien2022](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@Alien2022](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien2022)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/11 "2003-06-26T18:41:40Z")
This is only a temporary solution, and how do you deal with users who are using multiple computers behind a NAT? How do you know which user it was, and which one to sue? This is merely saber rattling. Simply put, you can easily evade their lawsuit by going out and purchasing all the CD’s. Because there is no way to prove that you downloaded the music. Plus, in the next version of filesharing programs, IPs will be masked from the services. The RIAA has a small window of opportunity, they had better use it wisely, and I’ll laugh when a 12 year old takes down these guys. I’ll laugh so hard. The problem is, what are you going to charge them on? If you erase your hard drive, there goes any substantial evidence, besides IP logs, which are hardly hard evidence of downloading. It’ll be interesting to see how they do this. Its pointless to sue individual users in any case, because they simply do NOT HAVE THE MONEY, to reimburse you. At max, you’ll probably receive 100-200 bucks thats it. Is it really worth all the legal procedures? Why doesnt the RIAA help find a solution instead of causing a problem? The analogy is exactly what itll be like. Someone will figure out what IP the RIAA is using to scan the net, and when that IP is logged on, no one will search, as soon as that IP logs off, everyone will continue to share. Just like the cop on the side of the road. Everyone slows down near the cop, but speeds up once hes out of sight. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/12 "2003-06-26T19:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien2022 \* > **It’ll be interesting to see how they do this. Its pointless to sue individual users in any case, because they simply do NOT HAVE THE MONEY, to reimburse you. At max, you’ll probably receive 100-200 bucks thats it. Is it really worth all the legal procedures?** I don’t think that’s their mission, to actually get money from broke download kiddies. On the other hand, merely defending against a lawsuit DOES cost money. It’s kind of like how the Scientologists work – when they identify a “Suppressive Person”, they file lawsuit after lawsuit against them, NOT to get any money out of them, but to “wear them down” with piles of legal bills, until they are financially ruined. I sure hope the media swings liberal again, and soon. Yesterday, every article I read in print or saw on TV was blatantly slanted _in favor of_ the RIAA and Big Media Corps. They even speak of the recording industry “losing $3.2 billion last year to illegal downloads” as if it were FACT, as opposed to suggesting, you know, that it might just be a bad economy right now. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/13 "2003-06-26T19:32:34Z")
Ah, the RIAA. These people are doing themselves a huge disservice. taking potshots at customers, or potential customers is _not_ a good way to do business. Result? Most will ignore it, new software will prevent it. The big one? The obselescence of the RIAA. they will be overtaken by newer, smaller associations of more forward thinking companies. This may mean: Artists win (most musos will back me up on this - record companies suck to deal with and will rip the artist wherever they can), and consumers win (along the Apple line I think) Actually I would be delighted to see the suicide of this monolith. This is not to say I agree with piracy, but simply that there standard business model, not to mention their treatment of artists, needs to go ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/14 "2003-06-26T19:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien2022 \* > This is merely saber rattling. Simply put, you can easily evade their lawsuit by going out and purchasing all the CD’s. Because there is no way to prove that you downloaded the music. No. Even if you own the CDs, you have no right to share them. They’re suing those who share copyrighted files. [quote] The problem is, what are you going to charge them on? If you erase your hard drive, there goes any substantial evidence, besides IP logs, which are hardly hard evidence of downloading. [/quotes] Again, all they have to do is show a snapshot of the files you were making available, and perhaps an affadavit that they downloaded a particular file from you and it was copyrighted music. They have to prove their case against you by preponderance of the evidence. If they can show that they downloaded a file from you, the burden of proof shifts to you to somehow prove they were wrong. > [@](#): > > It’ll be interesting to see how they do this. Its pointless to sue individual users in any case, because they simply do NOT HAVE THE MONEY, to reimburse you. At max, you’ll probably receive 100-200 bucks thats it. Is it really worth all the legal procedures? It’s the deterrent factor. If they get a judgement against the first 100 guys, and garnish their wages, ruin their credit, etc… it should have a substantial chilling effect on the next hundred people who decide to share music. > [@](#): > > The analogy is exactly what itll be like. Someone will figure out what IP the RIAA is using to scan the net, and when that IP is logged on, no one will search, as soon as that IP logs off, everyone will continue to share. Just like the cop on the side of the road. Everyone slows down near the cop, but speeds up once hes out of sight. Because the investigators will always be working from the same subnet? I hardly think they’re going to approach the problem that simplistically. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/15 "2003-06-26T19:57:52Z")
Well, their tactic has backfired on _me_, if that counts for anything. I’m boycotting RIAA until/unless they decide to stop using these iron fisted tactics. I usually only buy 2 or 3 CDs a year, and get a couple as gifts for christmas. But this year they aren’t going to get even that from me. I’ll also kindly ask anyone thinking of giving me a gift not to buy me any CDs for this reason as well. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/16 "2003-06-26T20:03:09Z")
The idea is so bad that I’m glad that they came up with it. They will do their own self in and will have no one to blame for it except themselves. Right now, there is little evidence that file sharing has made a dent in music sales. When the first down/uploader is taken to court by the RIAA, how many people are going to be in support of the defendant? I can see a lot of people feeling sympathetic for a pimply faced techno-fan going against a big bling-bling industry. There may be a public backlash due to what is seen as corporate bullying. The younger generation(s) want to have something to boycott. They missed the boat on the civil rights movement and Vietnam. Maybe all their pent-up rage of youth will be devoted to bringing down the RIAA. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/17 "2003-06-26T20:06:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **It’s the deterrent factor. If they get a judgement against the first 100 guys, and garnish their wages, ruin their credit, etc… it should have a substantial chilling effect on the next hundred people who decide to share music.** Because that tactic has worked so well against illegal drugs, alcohol during Prohibition, and TV license evasion in the UK? Suing the pants off of 100 people, when there are millions of downloaders, is no deterrent. Most downloaders will probably look at those odds, shrug their shoulders, and continue to download. It’s not right, it’s not legal, but this won’t cause it to stop. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/18 "2003-06-26T20:12:59Z")
Huh, speak of the devil. [RIAA tells four college students to come on down.](http://www.vh1.com/news/articles/1471036/04042003/id_0.jhtml) I will say that it looks like these guys went a little beyond collecting mp3s. But still, $150,000 per song? WTF? ---
**Author:** ![tramp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@tramp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tramp)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/19 "2003-06-26T20:21:34Z")
Blah. I just use the Apple iTunes store to buy my songs now. I don’t even go into the CD section at Best Buy anymore. The RIAA is fighting a losing war and they are going to come out of this worse than when they started. And they can kiss my large white ass. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/20 "2003-06-26T20:26:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by you with the face \* > \*\*Huh, speak of the devil. > > [RIAA tells four college students to come on down.](http://www.vh1.com/news/articles/1471036/04042003/id_0.jhtml) > > I will say that it looks like these guys went a little beyond collecting mp3s. But still, $150,000 per song? WTF? \*\* This is so completely out of proportion (by a ratio of 150,000 to 1 by my estimate) with any possible financial loss by the RIAA that I have little doubt it would get struck down on appeal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496.md?page=2)