# RIAA to go after individual media downloaders very shortly - Is this wise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496 "2003-06-26T13:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ab097/32.png) [@pure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pure)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/41 "2003-06-28T02:00:19Z")
I’m surprised that in all these threads no one has ever really stated something that i always thought was obvious. CD sales are down, that’s indiputable. The RIAA would have you believe it’s due entirely to file sharing, but for godsakes, look at the rest of the entertainment industry! > [@](#): > > In all of 2002, only eight films saw a $50 million weekend debut and in 2000, only three did, according to Exhibitor Relations. Given their star power, summer 2003’s films look to easily eclipse all of 2002’s $50 million openers… > > If “Full Throttle” tops that mark, it would be the seventh weekend out of nine since the May 2 release of “X2: X-Men United” that the No. 1 film in the United States has beaten what box office watchers are saying is the new benchmark. people are spending a record breaking amount at the movies.\* > [@](#): > > DVD sales have eclipsed video sales, and just this past March, the weekly revenue from DVD rentals exceeded VHS rental revenue for the first time, according to VSDA…sales are up 23% year over year in March. people are buying more DVD’s.\* > [@](#): > > The U.S. entertainment software industry grew 8% to a record-breaking $6.9 billion in 2002, according to data released today by the Interactive Digital Software Association (IDSA), the U.S. association representing computer and video game software publishers. [The video games industry is setting sales records](http://www.idsa.com/1_27_2003.html) How much disposable income does a consumer have? Something’s gotta give, and the consumer has chosen to spend his money on video games and movies rather than music. IMO, music offers the least value for the dollar. As an example, the DVD for The Bodyguard [costs $13.50](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0790729709/qid=1056762021/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4986080-5151201?v=glance&s=dvd). the soundtrack [is $13.99](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002VMD/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-4986080-5151201). I just picked that movie out of my head, because it was successful both as a movie and a soundtrack. Now they’re basically the same price. I could spend my $14 on a movie that’ll kill 1.5-2 hours of my time (plus any bonus features), or spend $14 on a cd, that depending on how many songs i actually like, might take up anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour of my time. Which offers the better value? The bodyguard is an illustration, but the same can be said for basically any DVD vs. music cd. DVD’s average, what, $20 or so? CD’s around $15? You’re getting a movie, commentaries, deleted scenes, alternate endings, and whatever else they decide to stuff onto the DVD for 5 bucks more than you’d pay for a cd with maybe 3 songs you’ll ever listen to. A video game offers potentially HUNDREDS of hours of playing time for only 4x the price of a cd. And throw a bad economy in there to boot. Does th RIAA expect the consumer to fuel a record breaking year at the box office, in the video game industry, and in music sales all at the same time, and all during a bad economic period? Please note I’m not condoning file sharing, or saying it’s the “greedy” RIAA’s fault they’re in the mess they’re in. Undoubtedly File sharing has eaten into sales. But whenever they say “Sales are down this year 14% due to file sharing” i think they sound ridiculous. Of that 14%, sales are down maybe 5% due to file sharing, 60% due to competition for the consumers entertainment dollar, and 35% due to crappy product. YMMV \*these quotes were taken from the news service of [bmoinvestorline.com](http://bmoinvestorline.com) who gets their news from Reuters. I can’t link directly to the articles beacsue you have to sign up to have access. ---
**Author:** ![David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_God_of_Frogs)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/42 "2003-06-28T02:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Binarydrone_ > See, this is actually a perfect example of one of the ways in which our current economic system is flawed. Consumers have made it abundantly clear what they want. My problem is that its not just the consumers who want it. My distinct impression is that muscians, the producers, want it too. It’s just the middlemen who are getting in the way. Does anyone know exactly what record companies do that costs almost $20 per CD? I doubt more than a small portion of that goes to the musicians themselves, and the physical materals and equipment probably cost a few cents, and the liner notes can’t be that expensive. ---
**Author:** ![486](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/ecccb3/32.png) [@486](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/486)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/43 "2003-06-28T04:27:49Z")
I beleive the music terrorists (riaa) _could_ succusfully greatly reduce downloading… especically if the 1st round of the lawsuts are succusful. But my feeling is more that while they probably will eventually kill off the mainstream file-sharing services… there will always be people who download. the whole thing will become smaller and more underground. and it will use something sorta _like_ proxy servers - located outside the US to keep users anonymous. (there was discussion on some of the usenet groups about using current open proxy servers in places such as china as a way to hide - basically someone trying to track your IP address just sees the proxy’s address. there are also reasons why simple proxys won’t work too well for filesharing… this post is getting too long so i won’t go into why) i don’t have tons of shared files (just around 100) but personally i think i’ll avoid being on the current file-shares (especially the large ones) at least for now. i’ve seen a number of others say this too (see their threats are working) but i also do not (and will not) buy new CD’s. i’ll stay with used i will never never never pay for a soundfile… because thats like paying out money & getting nothing (ie: no physical item) * * * lets say for example they did find some way of stopping all sharing/ downloading tomorrow (remember this is just a example): sure there’d be a big outcry from those who download soundfiles, and it may roll over to a fairly large-scale boycott of CD purchaces. but it wouldnt last long… as soon as it was out of the news, sales would go back to where they were before the boycott. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/44 "2003-06-28T05:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David, God of Frogs \* > **Does anyone know exactly what record companies do that costs almost $20 per CD?** Promotion. When you buy a CD from a band you like, a few bucks goes to radio stations (in various forms) in exchange for playing singles from bands you hate. In the past, promotion was a useful function of the record labels. There are thousands of bands out there who all want to be on the radio and on store shelves, and the label acts as a filter so you don’t have to spend your own time wading through the terrible bands. Today, though, the same function can be performed much more effectively by the internet: you can learn about music from friends and pundits, and hear it instantly. You can identify the people who share your tastes in music, and pay more attention to their suggestions, rather than listening to whatever a record executive or Clear Channel programming director wants you to like. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/45 "2003-06-28T17:57:48Z")
I recently saw an article in CPU:Computer Power User saying that MP3s don’t sound very good. This is the first mention of this I have seen in a computer magazine. The hi-fi mag AUDIO was saying this back in 1999. Why couldn’t the RIAA team up with hi-fi manufacturers and tell people how crappy M Puke 3s sound on equipment worth listening to? Then they could encourage people to buy CD’s for good sound and let MP3s circulate as free advertising. And get people to buy decent audio gear. If they redesigned the record stores so people could buy individual songs and burn them to CD’s total sales might actually go up. Set up search to find music people have never heard but would probably like on the basis of questions about what they already like. How much music is there that you have never heard? Walk into the store sit at a computer. Bring some good headphones, Grado’s. Click on songs and rate them 1 to 5 and the computer searches its database. How about $1 per track you buy. A $15 CD would be filled with high qulity music you like. I want royalties if you do this. LOL Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![InquisitiveIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3ec8ea/32.png) [@InquisitiveIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InquisitiveIdiot)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/46 "2003-06-28T19:29:01Z")
> [@](#): > > A technical question for the gurus out there. Given the following conditions, is it possible to have truly anonymous P2P sharing on a large scale like we see with Kazaa: > > 1. Files have to be labeled and searchable under the song title > 2. The files (yours or not) have to be stored locally on your drive > 3. Anyone with an internet connection and software (within reason) must be able to request and download the song > 4. ISPs will be willing to work with authorities to identify users who violate copyright Read my link from Freenet. You can do 2 and 3. There is no searching, and files are identified by hash keys. 4 is impossible - ISPs would never be able to prove it was you, even if they do manage to break the encryption. The primary price of anonymity is searchability, availability, and latency. You need the hash key of a file to get it, and there’s no guarantee that it’ll be found, and the download will be slow, but no one will know you did it. ---
**Author:** ![YourOldBuddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/bc79bd/32.png) [@YourOldBuddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourOldBuddy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/47 "2003-06-28T20:13:36Z")
It wont work on me since Im not American. They wouldnt even bother with this type of lawsuit here. It would get lost in the system somewhere never to resurface. If they start with more pressure I would make sure to move to a p2p network with a robust encryption. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/48 "2003-06-28T20:54:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I recently saw an article in CPU:Computer Power User saying that MP3s don’t sound very good. This is the first mention of this I have seen in a computer magazine. The hi-fi mag AUDIO was saying this back in 1999. The quality of an Mp3 depends on the quality of the original .wav file it’s made from and the amount it’s compressed. A 256-bit Mp3 is pretty much CD quality, especially since human ears don’t tend to be capable of detecting whatever extremely minor differences in the audio. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/49 "2003-06-28T21:24:42Z")
Ther RIAA loses money because most of the filesharers are their biggest customers. They aren’t the ones so stupid that they don’t know how to use computer, much less know how to fileshare, as one musician thanked her fans for. ---
**Author:** ![InquisitiveIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3ec8ea/32.png) [@InquisitiveIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InquisitiveIdiot)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/50 "2003-06-28T21:41:57Z")
> [@](#): > > It wont work on me since Im not American. They wouldnt even bother with this type of lawsuit here. It would get lost in the system somewhere never to resurface. That’s probably what Jon Johansen thought, too. Don’t count on it. If things get bad here, switch anyway. > [@](#): > > Ther RIAA loses money because most of the filesharers are their biggest customers. They aren’t losing money becuase of piracy. They’re losing money\* because they aren’t making as many albums. Look at my earlier cite. \*They’re not losing money, they’re just not making as much. They’re still far from being in the red. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/51 "2003-06-29T00:47:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dal\_timgar \* > **Why couldn’t the RIAA team up with hi-fi manufacturers and tell people how crappy M Puke 3s sound on equipment worth listening to? Then they could encourage people to buy CD’s for good sound and let MP3s circulate as free advertising. And get people to buy decent audio gear.** MP3s might not sound as good as CDs (depending on your encoder, bitrate, and equipment), but they sound good enough for most people. Remember, people still listen to FM radio, and there’s no question that FM sounds worse than CD. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by InquisitiveIdiot_ > **Read my link from Freenet. You can do 2 and 3. There is no searching, and files are identified by hash keys.** Well, there are different services you can search (Frost, Frazaa, various movie/MP3 index freesites), but there’s no single point of searching like there is with Kazaa. ---
**Author:** ![Verminous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Verminous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Verminous)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/52 "2003-06-29T02:12:21Z")
Well, at college, I don’t even share files when using a P2P program such as Kazaa. People trying to download off me always wind up cancelling since they get rates akin to 0.12 kb/s. But that’s another story. This will scare people, undoubtedly, but scare tactics only go so far. Most people will simply find ways to go around it, or will simply continue to do as they are now in the face of danger. I mean, scaring people isn’t going to deter them from downloading - it will just motivate them to stiff the bully. Kind of like Polish resistance during WWII, y’know? Numerous posters have mentioned how going about it like Apple has is probably the most efficient way. While it may not solve the mp3 sharing problem, at the very least you’re not alienating yourself from your consumers. Someone should e-mail the RIAA telling them that the customer is always right. 😉 What’s kind of funny to me is that they explicitly say that they are only targeting the file sharers, not the pure downloaders. So when I log onto kazaa and download 50 files in one sitting, all the while not sharing my 2000+ mp3s that I have on my comp, I’m in the clear? I am cutting into their profits as much as anyone else allegedly is, but hey, so long as I don’t share. T’is better to receive than to give, here. Selfishness is paying off for me - all those church school classes were for naught. Anyway, I removed Kazaa from my father’s computer anyhow just so nothing unpleasant may occur, even though he has approximately 5 mp3’s on here. No chance of them making my father a public example, that’s fo sho. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/53 "2003-06-29T11:03:44Z")
My friends and I were discussing what the most effective way the RIAA could cut down on file sharing, and we came up with viruses embedded within MP3 files (and whatever other popular audio formats there are), sorta like the Word macro viruses that were hatched a while back. I’m not sure if this is technically possible to accomplish (help from any of the tech folk in here?), but I imagine that would basically kill most file sharing right there, if a well-known and dangerous virus were floating around in mp3s. No one would take the risk of infecting their computer to save a buck or two on songs that could be downloaded off of I-tunes. Of course, it would have to be a black project for the RIAA that only a few would know about, but it is eminently possible, as it only takes one to program a virus and let it loose. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/54 "2003-06-29T12:18:18Z")
Well, the tactic is currently working out pretty well for DirecTV. ---
**Author:** ![froggg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8797f3/32.png) [@froggg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/froggg)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/55 "2003-06-29T12:57:14Z")
**Windwalker** , even if the RIAA took that step, which I’d imagine, would be illegal, then the Anti-Virus companies, or even someone with a bit of programming knowledge will find a way to detect and repair infected files. The most effective way for the RIAA to cut down file sharing is to evolve and meet the needs of 21st Century consumers. If they don’t then the following will ultimately happen. As sung in the NOFX song entitled, Dinosaurs Will Die: "Dinosaurs will surely die and I do believe no one will cry, I’m just _really_ glad, I’m gonna be, There to watch the fall Prehistoric music industry Three feet in la brea tar Extinction never felt so good" Basically putting files in MP3s would be about as useful as that time they went to all that trouble to put copy prevention on some music CDs and someone figured out that if you draw a ring around the outer edge of the CD, that it rendered the protection useless?. That’s what I heard anyway (therefore no cite) but the idea is there. The minute they find a way to stop the practice, someone will find a way to circumvent it. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/56 "2003-06-29T20:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Windwalker \* > **My friends and I were discussing what the most effective way the RIAA could cut down on file sharing, and we came up with viruses embedded within MP3 files (and whatever other popular audio formats there are), sorta like the Word macro viruses that were hatched a while back.** If it’s possible at all, it can only work by exploiting a bug in a specific media player for a specific platform, since MP3s don’t contain any code that’s executed intentionally. It could only affect a small subset of MP3 users, and only until the bug is fixed (days, if not hours). ---
**Author:** ![Alien2022](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@Alien2022](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien2022)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/57 "2003-06-29T21:46:25Z")
Well see the problem is that if they dont catch your computer with the MP3’s on it, they really have no substantial evidence that you actually downloaded music over P2P programs… So none of this will actually go to court, because a smart person will just wipe their hard drive… Ip addresses and port numbers are not substantial evidence IIRC. All they will do is show that you accessed that port through that IP… RIAA is going to take a huge fall when this backfires. ---
**Author:** ![InquisitiveIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3ec8ea/32.png) [@InquisitiveIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InquisitiveIdiot)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/58 "2003-06-30T16:46:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Well see the problem is that if they dont catch your computer with the MP3’s on it, they really have no substantial evidence that you actually downloaded music over P2P programs… So none of this will actually go to court, because a smart person will just wipe their hard drive… They don’t need to go to court because it’s almost always cheaper to settle. So no evidence other than their accusation is required. It won’t backfire until they pick on some poor guy who just so happens to have an obscure rich relative who volunteers to fund the court case. THEN it might blow up in their faces. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/59 "2003-06-30T17:55:01Z")
Why aren’t usenet binaries groups ever mentioned? The servers are open and there are several ways of anonymously uploading a file. A quick check on a server shows first-run movies such as Matrix reloaded, X-Men 2, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, (OK, that isn’t first run, but good!) The alt.binaries.music groups have all the albums and complete music videos anyone could want, even complete concerts. Downloading off these things can also be anonymous if you search around a bit. Besides, most servers don’t keep logs of downloads, only uploads. It seems that the RIAA and MPAA are so focused on file-sharing that they’ve completely forgotten about good old usenet. _S_ All the best Testy ---
**Author:** ![InquisitiveIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3ec8ea/32.png) [@InquisitiveIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InquisitiveIdiot)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496/60 "2003-06-30T18:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Besides, most servers don’t keep logs of downloads, only uploads. How much are you willing to risk on this? I say stick with what you _know_ to be anonymous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riaa-to-go-after-individual-media-downloaders-very-shortly-is-this-wise/184496.md?page=4)