# Rice says in Iraq: "This war came to us." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955 "2005-05-15T19:27:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/61 "2005-05-20T08:22:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I would count myself among those who ‘cry “foul!” when comparing the Bush Administration’s campaign of deceit with Nazi propaganda’. It’s not the content it is the technique of repeating a Big Lie and in this respect unless we concede that Rice, Bush et al are so monumentally ignorant or incompetent that they still believe what they say then the comparison is totally valid. The evidence clearly shows they lied at the time and knew they were lying and they continue to repeat the lie for political ends. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/62 "2005-05-20T10:51:43Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not the content it is the technique of repeating a Big Lie and in this respect unless we concede that Rice, Bush et al are so monumentally ignorant or incompetent that they still believe what they say then the comparison is totally valid. Which, as I noted, was a valid point of nuanced comparison. However, throwing out the “Nazi” claim is the equivalent of rhetorically “going nuclear.” It brings all discussion to a halt because you have framed the discussion so that anyone who accepts the administration position _on any topic_ is now aligned with “the Nazis” with all the baggage that that entails. It may be true that Goebbels happened to coin the phrase “big lie,” but it is not true that he created the practice and one can use many of the events from U.S. history (among many others) to make the same point without implying that the Bush administration has an ultimate goal of exterminating millions of people and enslaving tens millions more. Throwing the “Nazi” bomb _does_ equate its target with the Holocaust and WWII, no matter how many disclaimers you want to post about “technique.” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/63 "2005-05-20T11:01:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which, as I noted, was a valid point of nuanced comparison. However, throwing out the “Nazi” claim is the equivalent of rhetorically “going nuclear.” It brings all discussion to a halt because you have framed the discussion so that anyone who accepts the administration position _on any topic_ is now aligned with “the Nazis” with all the baggage that that entails. It may be true that Goebbels happened to coin the phrase “big lie,” but it is not true that he created the practice and one can use many of the events from U.S. history (among many others) to make the same point without implying that the Bush administration has an ultimate goal of exterminating millions of people and enslaving tens millions more. Throwing the “Nazi” bomb _does_ equate its target with the Holocaust and WWII, no matter how many disclaimers you want to post about “technique.” That is not a ‘disclaimer’ it is what I was trying to say and what others are trying to say. Because the Nazi’s used the Big Lie technique does not preclude others using the same technique and does not give those using the Big Lie technique a free pass on being called for it. In fact they should be called on it explicitly with reference to the Nazi’s because they and their supporters need to be shamed and should be ashamed to be using a Nazi technique. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/64 "2005-05-20T11:04:39Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > That is not a ‘disclaimer’ it is what I was trying to say and what others are trying to say. Because the Nazi’s used the Big Lie technique does not preclude others using the same technique and does not give those using the Big Lie technique a free pass on being called for it. > > In fact they should be called on it explicitly with reference to the Nazi’s because they and their supporters need to be shamed and should be ashamed to be using a Nazi technique. none of this should detract from the fact I was totally wrong to make the Herr remark. That was just plain wrong of me. By ‘they’ and ‘supporter’ I mean politicians and their media mouthpieces like Coulter. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/65 "2005-05-20T16:54:44Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > It’s not the content it is the technique of repeating a Big Lie and in this respect unless we concede that Rice, Bush et al are so monumentally ignorant or incompetent that they still believe what they say then the comparison is totally valid. > > The evidence clearly shows they lied at the time and knew they were lying and they continue to repeat the lie for political ends. Ignorant? Or maybe deliberate? Here are some quotes: > [@](#): > > “There is already a mountain of evidence that Saddam Hussein is gathering weapons for the purpose of using them. And adding additional information is like adding a foot to Mount Everest.” > Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary Response to Question From Press 9/6/2002 > > “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” > Condoleeza Rice, CNN Late Edition 9/8/2002 > > “Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.” > George W. Bush, Speech to UN General Assembly 9/12/2002 > > “Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons – the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.” > George W. Bush, Radio Address 10/5/2002 > > “The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas.” > George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002 > > “We’ve also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas.” > George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002 > > “Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.” > George W. Bush, State of the Union Address 1/28/2003 Compare these statements to what are known facts and draw your own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/66 "2005-05-20T21:53:58Z")
Quick question for anyone who cares to grab it. With all the evidence that’s come forth, why is the level of outrage so anemic in the US? I mean, sure, there are pockets of indignation here and there, but, overall, it appears that Joe Sixpack isn’t really that bothered by the fact that your nation went to war based on a pack of – demonstrable – lies. Puzzled. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/67 "2005-05-20T22:16:35Z")
Vulgas vult decepi (the people wish to be deceived). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/68 "2005-05-20T22:16:58Z")
Been out of the country and out of communications for quite a while now. Looks like I’m just a ‘member’ now. Ah well, c’est la vie. Still my favorite message board. > [@RedFury](#): > > With all the evidence that’s come forth, why is the level of outrage so anemic in the US? I mean, sure, there are pockets of indignation here and there, but, overall, it appears that Joe Sixpack isn’t really that bothered by the fact that your nation went to war based on a pack of – demonstrable – lies. I’ll start off by trying to tackle this one before dipping into this thread more. Couple of reasons I see off the top of my head. First off, I think ‘indignation’ is building here…its just building slowly. The anti-war crowd wanted it to happen immediately, but using the (bad) example most tossed about of Vietnam, protest there didn’t happen in a day…it took years to build up, and even then its debatable if the majority of American’s were against the war. Secondly, and not trying to diminish the US men and women who have lost their lives, for the US the casualties have been relatively light. Again, the attempt to portray the conflict as catastrophic to the US by the anti-war crowd was premature IMO…it just never got to that level (at least not yet). As for Iraqi casualties…well, I doubt most American’s really think much on that to be honest. Thirdly, the US public was pre-conditioned to being hostile to Iraq, so even if they are coming to the slow realization that there were myriad, er, adjustings of the truth lets say, its hard to build up sympathy for Saddam and his regime either, so its kind of a wash…thus general US apathy concerning the war. Atm. Again, I think that the longer this goes on with a trickle of US casualties, as long as the insurgency continues its low grade rumbling, the more support or even apathy will errode and the more resentments will build up. Thats just my opinion of course. Lastly, I don’t know how informed the general population is on all the in’s and out’s of the ‘Bush lied’ debate. One problem I see is the crying wolf aspects of the anti-war/anti-Bush crowd early in the game. A lot of folks became fed up with the constant babble of anti-Bush rhetoric, and then, when facts started coming out that a lot of the case for war was built on a house of cards, such things were dismissed as just more anti-Bush rhetoric. I have to admit that until recently I was actually in this group, and until I went and dug into the facts myself I dismissed a lot of the ‘Bush lied!’ stuff as simply rhetoric. I doubt that most American’s are going to spend an entire evening digging that deeply. -XT ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/69 "2005-05-20T23:06:59Z")
It doesn’t help that our “independent” “liberal” media thinks we’d rather hear about the Michael Jackson trial and runaway brides instead of stuff like this. Getting on the Bush Administration’s bad side doesn’t help the CEOs in the long term… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/70 "2005-05-20T23:52:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Quick question for anyone who cares to grab it. > > With all the evidence that’s come forth, why is the level of outrage so anemic in the US? I mean, sure, there are pockets of indignation here and there, but, overall, it appears that Joe Sixpack isn’t really that bothered by the fact that your nation went to war based on a pack of – demonstrable – lies. > > Puzzled. Short answer: We **won.** Yeah, the insurgency is still going on, but we **won.** Joe Sixpack takes pride in that. “We’re #1” ---
**Author:** ![sewalk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@sewalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sewalk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/71 "2005-05-21T08:22:09Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Where do you get off comparing the United States to Nazi Germany?And it’s a true insult to Americans. Spiff, Responses like this are illustrate why I will never listen or give weight to your arguements or those of your fellow Bush apologists. I comapred the tactics of this presidential administration regarding propaganda with the Nazi government’s use of propaganda. And that is what Secretary Rice used: the oft-told lie. And I am a true American by any definition you wish to use. Your condemnation of me implies that I am unAmerican. If you say that I cannot criticize the behavior of our government and say it is wrong, you are definitely the one being unAmerican, sir. You and others like you, Tail-Gunner Joe! ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/72 "2005-05-21T13:27:07Z")
Welcome back **XT** , you were missed. Check out **Airman Doors** new angle. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/73 "2005-05-21T19:30:14Z")
> [@sewalk](#): > > Spiff, > And I am a true American by any definition you wish to use. Your condemnation of me implies that I am unAmerican. If you say that I cannot criticize the behavior of our government and say it is wrong, you are definitely the one being unAmerican, sir. You and others like you, Tail-Gunner Joe! Damn right. Spiff is trying to “put the Coulter move” on you. Dissent = treason. Doubt = treason If anything, the refusal to question the motives and intentions of government is completely “American”. It is blind faith and total obedience that are unAmerican. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/74 "2005-05-21T19:32:53Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Damn right. Spiff is trying to “put the Coulter move” on you. > Dissent = treason. > Doubt = treason > > If anything, the refusal to question the motives and intentions of government is completely “American”. It is blind faith and total obedience that are unAmerican. The first was supposed to say If anything, the refusal to question the motives and intentions of government is completely “ **un** American”. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/75 "2005-05-23T04:12:52Z")
Hey, **xt** , thanx for the reply and welcome back. Quick comment. I think the first three reasons you give go to the heart of my question re:Joe Sixpack. However, the last – and IMHO, the most important – only applies to people such as _yourself_. I’ll try to explain. The anti-war side had/has the answers to all three of those all along, and as many people have pointed out and as ultimatedly, _you yourself_ found out, the answers were there to be found all along. And as you also well know, it _took work_ and an attention span beyond that of a sound bite or a poignant image – a la anthax vial at the UN. To this day, as your own history confirms, I really see no work-around. I mean, surely you’re aware of the recently leaked [Dearlove memo](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html)? Why wasn’t it a lead story in every media outlet in the US? Not that it was exactly ‘news’ for anyone that had been doing their homework all along. Hell, if you want a synopsis of what we’ve been saying all along (yes, I know, right about now, that’s the last thing you need) try [Cook’s resignation speech](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2859431.stm) and note the date of same! Anyway, I’m not really arguing with you, just saying that I don’t hold out much (none?) hope for the average American to go through what you did to arrive at your conclusions. Just hope it doesn’t take a _larger catastrophe_ than we’re currently witnessing to wake them. In that sense, I agree with **rjung’s** and **BrainGlutton’s** concise replies. Jingoism and propaganda can only carry you so far. You’re nearing the very edge as it is. Again, as I posted upthread, not trying to be overly dramatic, but rather pragmatic. Hell’s bells! I go into a _colmado_\* here for a near-frozen Presidente beer, strike up a casual conversation with the locals, _and almost to a one_, the most seemingly ignorant peon will tell you the same thing: Bush lied, they went there for the oil. Oversimplification mayhaps, but still much closer to the truth than the majority of Americans who decided Bush deserved another term. That’s what so puzzling to me! \*Latin version of a minimart – just much noisier and dingier…but a hell of a lot of _fun_! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/76 "2005-05-23T04:17:10Z")
PS-for beer-lovers, [this is Presidente](http://presidente.com.do/site.htm). Good stuff! \ ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955/77 "2005-05-23T10:32:25Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Ignorant? Or maybe deliberate? > > Here are some quotes: > Compare these statements to what are known facts and draw your own conclusions. There isn’t a shadow of doubt in my mind that it is all a deliberate lie. It is not possible to believe that stripping out all the caveats from intelligence, the misrepresentation of facts, the continued and continuing repetitions of known falsehoods is ignorance. Occams’ Razor dictates that in the light of the available evidence, the Deerlove memo being only the most recent, deliberate lying is the simplest explanation. I’ve been advocating the overthrow of Saddam since before Rumsfeld was selling him arms but war is too serious a business for a democratic country to allow itself to be lied into. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-says-in-iraq-this-war-came-to-us/303955.md?page=3)