# Rice to warn Europe about detainee problem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852 "2005-12-03T02:31:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/21 "2005-12-03T18:29:13Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Odd, really. I didn’t see any quotes from Rice in that article that the US position was “back off”. That was entirely the characterization of the author of the article, based upon his conversations with an unnamed “European diplomat”. Nations in the EU have expressed concern about the treatment of terrorist detainees that the U.S. may or may not be holding in Europe, and she’s going over there to address these concerns, _which is her job_. Wouldn’t it be prudent to actually wait until we see what she says before breaking out the effigys and matches? What for? Many (or at least some) of us don’t have much faith that we’ll ever hear anything near truth from our administration. Instead of facts, we get empty slogans, “trust me”, and claims that are later flatly refuted by the documentation and events. Given the arrogance and incompetence we have observed with this administration, there is no reason to simply wait for the “spin machine” to “explain it all”. All we have to do is read the nespapers. Waiting for any explanation or evidence would require trust. That trust was frittered away long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/22 "2005-12-03T18:37:36Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Odd, really. I didn’t see any quotes from Rice in that article that the US position was “back off”. That was entirely the characterization of the author of the article, based upon his conversations with an unnamed “European diplomat”. Nations in the EU have expressed concern about the treatment of terrorist detainees that the U.S. may or may not be holding in Europe, and she’s going over there to address these concerns, _which is her job_. Wouldn’t it be prudent to actually wait until we see what she says before breaking out the effigys and matches? It sounds like an accurate characterization to me. The stuff she’s apparently going to say sounds patronizing and scolding and evasive. Like this, for instance: > [@](#): > > On the trip, she will remind allies they themselves have been cooperating in U.S. operations and tell them to do more to win over their publics as a way to deflect criticism directed at the United States, diplomats and U.S. officials said. > > “It’s very clear they want European governments to stop pushing on this,” said a European diplomat, who had contact with U.S. officials over the handling of the scandals. “They were stuck on the defensive for weeks, but suddenly the line has toughened up incredibly,” the diplomat said. > > Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said Rice told him in Washington she expected allies to trust that America does not allow rights abuses – a sign she will avoid giving Europe a detailed response on U.S. intelligence work. > > And she pointedly did not give Ahern a personal assurance Ireland has not been used for secret prisoner transfers because he had already heard that denial from the U.S. ambassador, a senior State Department official said. What a presumptuous, condescending bitch. They’re all just supposed to “trust that the US does not allow rights abuses?” Is she fucking serious? Is there no end to this administrations capacity for bald-faced lies and denial in the face of all evidence? They’re all just supposed to stop asking questions about anythng the US does because the monkey doesn’t like to be questioned or criticized about his lying or his war crimes. This is unelated but I thought it was hysterical: > [@](#): > > Rice will stress in public that Washington does not violate allies’ sovereignty or break international law Bwaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha 😃 Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/23 "2005-12-03T18:40:35Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > What for? Many (or at least some) of us don’t have much faith that we’ll ever hear anything near truth from our administration. Instead of facts, we get empty slogans, “trust me”, and claims that are later flatly refuted by the documentation and events. Given the arrogance and incompetence we have observed with this administration, there is no reason to simply wait for the “spin machine” to “explain it all”. All we have to do is read the nespapers. Waiting for any explanation or evidence would require trust. That trust was frittered away long ago. Ahh, I see. So this is just another “Bush Sux” wankfest. Gotcha. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/24 "2005-12-03T18:48:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It sounds like an accurate characterization to me. The stuff she’s apparently going to say sounds patronizing and scolding and evasive. Like this, for instance: > > What a presumptuous, condescending bitch. They’re all just supposed to “trust that the US does not allow rights abuses?” Is she fucking serious? Is there no end to this administrations capacity for bald-faced lies and denial in the face of all evidence? They’re all just supposed to stop asking questions about anythng the US does because the monkey doesn’t like to be questioned or criticized about his lying or his war crimes. Nice job of selective quoting Dio. You quote the unnamed European diplomat and the conclusion of the author of the article as evidence that Rice is “a presumptuous, condescending bitch”, and then fail to quote Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern’s response to rest of it. > [@](#): > > Ahern said he accepted the U.S. word. Partisan idiocy? Nah, not a bit of it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/25 "2005-12-03T20:43:09Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Ahh, I see. So this is just another “Bush Sux” wankfest. Gotcha. Carry on. Maybe it is, or maybe it is well founded and deserved cynicism borne out of recent history. How many times do we have to hear some variation of “trust me” before we say “well we don’t anymore”? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/26 "2005-12-03T20:55:47Z")
I’d say Rice is the perfect face for this administration: arrogant, graceless, unhampered by a concern for the truth. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/27 "2005-12-03T21:58:08Z")
Sniff,sniff…smells like…like…Grover Norquist. Even though I too, had a spittle-flecked passel of invective I was ready to heap on our Secretary of State, **Dave** _had_ to go all rational and dispassionate on us. Thanks alot, **Dave**. Anyway, I can wait. Half of me hopes it won’t be as blatant as others expect, the other half does. I do not like this woman, and I would be quite content to watch her dig herself and her handlers that much deeper, cause when the knives come out (and I can already hear the sound of steel on a whetstone), she’ll just be falling that much harder, to mix a bunch of metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/28 "2005-12-04T00:51:57Z")
I agree with **SteveG1**. If this were the early days of the administration then I’d be willing to wait and see. But at this point there is a fairly extensive track record for deception and poor policy making, and this sure sounds like a continuation of same. However, I don’t agree with using this policy to criticize Condi Rice personally. Or even to criticize her face-to-face style of negotiation. I suspect most of us have little information about either. This is about policy. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/29 "2005-12-04T03:13:14Z")
> [@Clock](#): > > It may not be your opinion my friend but how many others of your ilk echo those words of yours and MEAN them? > > In any event kindly exclude the UK from mainland Europe, we are of a different breed 🆒 The quote is in reference to one of the [most famous headlines](http://www.flickr.com/photos/untergeek/17881729/) in the history of US newspapers. Just in case US tabloid news isn’t a mandatory class in UK schools. ---
**Author:** ![Clock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@Clock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clock)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/30 "2005-12-04T07:09:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > True. Most of the rest can at least cook. Well then it’s quite obvious you’ve never tasted the exquisite delights of that great British invention…The Deep Fried Mars Bar. Or Black peas,vinegar and mushy peas. I could go on 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/31 "2005-12-04T07:13:54Z")
Like bubble & squeak? :: shudder :: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/32 "2005-12-04T08:19:59Z")
Isn’t it bubbles and squeak? (It’s been a while since I lived in London.) Meanwhile, I have to wonder just how long it’ll take before the global community really stands up to the US, and what’ll happen. It’s a shame, we used to have massive international support after 9/11, and now it’s more likely that we’ll see a "coalition of the un-willing’ than gain new allies. ---
**Author:** ![Clock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@Clock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clock)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/33 "2005-12-04T11:17:42Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Like bubble & squeak? > > :: shudder :: Delicious stuff!!! on a par with tripe and onions or even raw tripe with vinegar in every hole and that scrummy fat that you sometimes get with it. A culinary delight 😃 ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/34 "2005-12-04T12:59:40Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Odd, really. I didn’t see any quotes from Rice in that article that the US position was “back off”. That was entirely the characterization of the author of the article, based upon his conversations with an unnamed “European diplomat”. Well, no. It seems to be based on this: "But Rice will shift to offense when she visits Europe next week, **in a strategy that has emerged in recent days and been tested by her spokesman in public and in her private meetings with European visitors.** Rice, who has been largely silent on detainees and had an unusually low-profile in Washington during the scandal, said she would personally address the issue in public before heading to Europe. U.S. officials said that could be early on Monday. On the trip, **she will remind allies they themselves have been cooperating in U.S. operations and tell them to do more to win over their publics as a way to deflect criticism directed at the United States, diplomats and U.S. officials said**." Note the last three words there. No she hasn’t spoken yet…that’s why I haven’t lit these matches I have here. But it seem like the article has reasonable grounds for the characterization of what she’s going to say…and given that “presumptuous, condescending bitch” sounds about right. bete"keeping her matchs dry"noir ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/35 "2005-12-04T13:08:52Z")
> [@Clock](#): > > Delicious stuff!!! on a par with tripe and onions or even raw tripe with vinegar in every hole and that scrummy fat that you sometimes get with it. > > A culinary delight 😃 You probably eat haggis too. Ok, that I can forgive, but…you probably eat marmite!!! Ahhhhhhhhh!!! (And it is bubble and squeak, bubble singular. And what’s wrong with bubble and squeak?) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/36 "2005-12-04T13:27:07Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > [Rice to warn Europe to back off over detainees](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051203/ts_nm/security_europe_rice_dc) For this European. No problem. Condoleezza Rice and the US are free to hold whatever opinion they want. Just as Europe is free to tell Rice to stick it up her pussy - that is if Europeans are not themselves a bunch of pussies unwilling or too scared to pay the price of their beliefs. We’ll see. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Worse. They’ll send Bush on another state visit :eek: You can fucking say that again. Last time Bush went by the fucking idiots were out in force. All kinds of communists (the good old Soviet faithfuls as well as Troskits, Maoists, Marxists/Lenistist and what not), Islamic organisations openly calling for sharia and stoning of unfaithful women, the organisation: The Friends of North Korea, etc. etc… Seeing Soviet faithful communists, maoists and North Korea supporters portraying themselves as moderates and moral superior is something I hope never to see again. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/37 "2005-12-04T14:22:58Z")
Just happened to see [this article](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10316560/) this morning, which clearly indicates a) the CIA and other agencies have kidnapped and subjected to physical and emotional abuse more than 3000 persons since renditions began; b) that the CIA employees determined in internal investigations that at least three dozen innocent people have been kidnapped and incarcerated for lengthy periods under the program c) that the responsibility for this criminal and disgusting abuse of power leads directly to the White House, via a secret Presidential ‘finding’; d) that the US has been exerting all kinds of pressure on foreign governments to keep the cases of false imprisonment secret, less for operational reasons, it seems, than to avoid embarassment and possible prosecutions. I’ve never in my life been moved to write a letter to an elected official, but this may be the tipping point. This program must be fully exposed and stopped, and perhaps if enough protests are registered by Congress, its membership will grow a pair and do something about it. In the meantime, if I were an official of an EU country and Ms. Rice came to me blathering about how I should simply trust her assurances that the US is not allowing abuses of rights or violating international law, I’d throw her out on her ear. ---
**Author:** ![Clock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@Clock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clock)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/38 "2005-12-04T15:49:27Z")
> [@betenoir](#): > > You probably eat haggis too. Ok, that I can forgive, but…you probably eat marmite!!! Ahhhhhhhhh!!! > > (And it is bubble and squeak, bubble singular. And what’s wrong with bubble and squeak?) Haggis is eaten mainly by Scots and it’s bloody awful believe me. I tasted it ONCE, nuff said. It’s bubble and squeak and it’s tasty, plenty of pepper and some brown bread as a accompaniment…delishuss. 😃 Marmite? do people actually eat that :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/39 "2005-12-04T16:41:50Z")
> [@Clock](#): > > Haggis is eaten mainly by Scots and it’s bloody awful believe me. I tasted it ONCE, nuff said. > > It’s bubble and squeak and it’s tasty, plenty of pepper and some brown bread as a accompaniment…delishuss. 😃 > > Marmite? do people actually eat that :rolleyes: I like Haggis. Not love, but it’s pretty tasty. It’s bubble and squeak I can’t stand - eeeeew. And Marmite. Ick. Toad in the Hole is lovely, though…_drools_. > [@Rune](#): > > You can fucking say that again. Last time Bush went by the fucking idiots were out in force. All kinds of communists (the good old Soviet faithfuls as well as Troskits, Maoists, Marxists/Lenistist and what not), Islamic organisations openly calling for sharia and stoning of unfaithful women, the organisation: The Friends of North Korea, etc. etc… Seeing Soviet faithful communists, maoists and North Korea supporters portraying themselves as moderates and moral superior is something I hope never to see again. Wow. I’m in the UK, so we didn’t get a similar turnout when Bush came here, thank god. The disturbing thing is, as time goes by, these people are just getting more and more ammunition they can use against democracy - the US lying and then covering their asses all over the place is making these people look positively good by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/40 "2005-12-04T16:53:06Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I agree with **SteveG1**. If this were the early days of the administration then I’d be willing to wait and see. But at this point there is a fairly extensive track record for deception and poor policy making, and this sure sounds like a continuation of same. > > However, I don’t agree with using this policy to criticize Condi Rice personally. Or even to criticize her face-to-face style of negotiation. I suspect most of us have little information about either. This is about policy. Rice is simply the person delivering the message. That’s her job as Sec’y of State. She is known as a highly intelligent person, however her job is to deliver the message her boss wants to give, just like Powell did. Unfortunately, the SOP is to shoot the messenger if the message sucks. Really, anyone who appointed Bolton to the UN and Wolfowitz to the World Bank has already made the message loud and clear. The messages are “we do whatever the hell we want” and “just do what we tell you to and shut up”, and “you’re with us or you’re against us”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852.md?page=3)