# Rice to warn Europe about detainee problem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852 "2005-12-03T02:31:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/41 "2005-12-04T17:58:09Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Just happened to see [this article](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10316560/) Interesting article **El-Kabong** (big fan, btw). I particularly like this: > [@](#): > > The CIA inspector general is investigating a growing number of what it calls “erroneous renditions,” according to several former and current intelligence officials. > > One official said about three dozen names fall in that category; others believe it is fewer. The list includes several people whose identities were offered by al Qaeda figures during CIA interrogations, officials said. One turned out to be an innocent college professor who had given the al Qaeda member a bad grade, one official said. wow…only 36 innocents out of 3000? That means that they’re batting something like 998. For an organization with such laser-like precision in finding the bad guys, I can’t for the life of me understand how they could fuck up the pre-invasion intelligence or how an eldery cleric could elude their grasp. Well, actually I can, but it’s not a very comforting thought. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/42 "2005-12-04T18:12:49Z")
[This BBC article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4497006.stm) seems to rehash what’s been printed elsewhere but there are some figures on aircraft movements in Germany that are causing them concern. > [@](#): > > On Saturday, Germany emerged as the latest country suspected of being used as a landing spot for secret CIA flights. > > The German government has a list of at least 437 flights suspected of being operated by the CIA in German airspace, according to a German magazine. > > Der Spiegel said the aircraft had made landings in Berlin, Frankfurt and the US airbase at Ramstein. > > Two planes alone accounted for 137 and 146 uses of airspace or landings in 2002 and 2003, the magazine reported. I’m convinced if asked nicely Ms Rice will clarify the purpose of these flights, it’s not as if she has anything to hide is it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/43 "2005-12-04T18:55:24Z")
Also troubled by the flexibility of the word “innocent”. Considering their eagerness to put the best possible spin on things, I’m guessing “innocent” means “pure as the driven snow”. Like that guy ratted out over nothing. Not thats _really_ innocent! But that could also mean that “less than innocent” covers a lot of possible territory. Like somebody who didn’t turn in his cousin, but has no other involvement. Who knows? But I’d be willing to bet that when they say “innocent” they mean but _totally_. PS: “Bubble and squeek”? Is that soda pop and a mouse crushed with pliers? ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/44 "2005-12-05T05:58:38Z")
> [@Clock](#): > > Haggis is eaten mainly by Scots and it’s bloody awful believe me. I tasted it ONCE, nuff said. > > It’s bubble and squeak and it’s tasty, plenty of pepper and some brown bread as a accompaniment…delishuss. 😃 > > Marmite? do people actually eat that :rolleyes: You eat _raw tripe_ and yet you have a problem with haggis?? I rather liked it, though I do admit the single malt helped. And thank you for your sane take on Marmite…why not just sit down with a bucket of salt and a spoon? But yes some people do eat it apparently. Bubble and squeak? Well now elucidator’s take on it will live forever in my memory (thanks a lot :dubious: ) but…it’s just potatoes and cabbage and such…it’s what you do with leftovers. What’s not to love? Although I’ve never understood the squeak part. Anyway I have to say I love a thread that interweaves international politics and dodgy food items. This is why I come here. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/45 "2005-12-05T08:03:53Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Rice is simply the person delivering the message. That’s her job as Sec’y of State. She is known as a highly intelligent person, however her job is to deliver the message her boss wants to give, just like Powell did. Unfortunately, the SOP is to shoot the messenger if the message sucks. ". You mean that she was forced into the position she’s currently holding, has no say in any matter and isn’t allowed to resign? Poor girl unjustly blamed… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/46 "2005-12-05T11:56:41Z")
> [@Clock](#): > > Haggis is eaten mainly by Scots and it’s bloody awful believe me. I tasted it ONCE, nuff said. > > It’s bubble and squeak and it’s tasty, plenty of pepper and some brown bread as a accompaniment…delishuss. 😃 > > Marmite? do people actually eat that :rolleyes: Haggis = YUM Bubble and squeak = Very Yum Marmite? It is to breathe! As for the Iraqi “situation”? It seems like the most dangerous situation in my generation’s time (born in the 60’s). ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/47 "2005-12-05T13:42:37Z")
wierddave, Dermot Ahern could intercept a CIA plane landing at shannon with a beaten up and chained “detainee” on board, and accept the excuse that it was a S+M afficionado hitching a lift to a convention in Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/48 "2005-12-05T14:02:39Z")
AFAI understand the situation, any country which allows a US plane to re-fuel on it’s way to a “rendition” or indeed on its way back from one, is in breach of international law. Any country which aids rendition is in breach of international law. Rendition itself is in breach of international law. Could someone explain to me why the USA is allowed to breach international law when it feels like it? Other than the obvious reason (we’re big and rich and powerful so we can do whatever the hell we want and you can’t stop us). ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/49 "2005-12-05T14:32:54Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Could someone explain to me why the USA is allowed to breach international law when it feels like it? > > Other than the obvious reason (we’re big and rich and powerful so we can do whatever the hell we want and you can’t stop us). Why do you think Ireland couldn’t stop the US from using its airspace or landing fields? I think no-one seriously thinks the US would invade Ireland if it said stay away. Of course it could have other, diplomatic or economic, consequences. However adults very well know, that all decisions have consequences. Either you think the decision is worth the consequences, or you do not. Apparently Ireland does not. Whatever. Fell free to do what you do. But lets not go and pretend we’re all bullied and repressed by the evil yanks and go into whine mode. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/50 "2005-12-05T14:41:44Z")
I’m not quite following what you’re saying here… So, when the bullied person is afraid of the consequences of facing up to the bully, he is therefore not really being bullied. 😕😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/51 "2005-12-05T14:51:20Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why do you think Ireland couldn’t stop the US from using its airspace or landing fields? I think no-one seriously thinks the US would invade Ireland if it said stay away. Of course it could have other, diplomatic or economic, consequences. However adults very well know, that all decisions have consequences. Either you think the decision is worth the consequences, or you do not. Apparently Ireland does not. Whatever. Fell free to do what you do. But lets not go and pretend we’re all bullied and repressed by the evil yanks and go into whine mode. Well I think the Irish government is wrong. Why the fuck can’t I or anyone else talk about it here. You talk about things that you don’t like enough(granted they’re usually about Muslims pissing you off but that’s beside the point). Why can people post about things that piss them off. The Irish government has buckled under economic pressure to ignore our neutrality and allow troops and possibly tortured people use our airspace and airports. I would hope that they pay for it in the next elections but don’t hold out hope as a lot of people are willing to accept torturers using our facilities once they aren’t British ones. I would like the Irish Government to ban all flights from the US apart from commercial flights (American Airlines etc. ) until they guarantee that no prisoners or troops are being routed through Ireland. I’d like to see all European governments stand together and do the same. The US need to be shamed over this. Unfortunately it won’t happen because of the real politik and cowardice. In between elections what other option is there other than whining? Marching? Well I think I know your opinions on anyone who marches against a government in response to anything Iraq related. Terrorist lovers and North Korean supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/52 "2005-12-05T17:07:09Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > I do not like this woman, and I would be quite content to watch her dig herself and her handlers that much deeper, cause when the knives come out (and I can already hear the sound of steel on a whetstone), she’ll just be falling that much harder, to mix a bunch of metaphors. When the knives come out, she’ll just be falling that much harder, and THEN the cheese will be on the OTHER foot! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/53 "2005-12-05T17:39:36Z")
I wish I was a cheesemaker. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/54 "2005-12-05T18:29:07Z")
Blessed are the cheesemakers! ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/55 "2005-12-05T18:33:16Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > However adults very well know, that all decisions have consequences. Either you think the decision is worth the consequences, or you do not. Apparently Ireland does not. Whatever. Fell free to do what you do. But lets not go and pretend we’re all bullied and repressed by the evil yanks and go into whine mode. And if the EU decides they don’t want to be a part of Secret Prisons where Torture is very likely taking place, and decides “Fine, but if you try to send CIA planes through EU airspace and we catch them, the planes will be forced to land and everyone on board will be arrested”, I expect you to remember that “All Decisions have consequences” and I’d really rather not hear you go into whine mode any say something about “Europeons Undermining the War on Terror” or some such crap(because it seems to be the standred right-wing response to anything nowadays). Or maybe not the entire EU. Maybe just everyone except Poland and Romania. But my point still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/56 "2005-12-05T22:59:18Z")
Well, it’s finally hit the Toronto mainstream meadia in a big way. The Globe and Mail, the respectable conservative business-oriented paper, has pictures of planes on its front page below the question “Are these the planes of Air Torture?”. The Toronto Star, the centrist/mildly-left city-oriented paper, had a big article about it on Sunday (page A12), titled “Ghost Flights Over Canada”. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/57 "2005-12-06T00:11:05Z")
Over here in the good ol’ [UK](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4499648.stm) , too. And [here’s](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4500630.stm) a lovely link to her full speech, with a few quite interesting points; i’m not up on all the political terms, but it seems to me she’s saying rather a lot about “hard choices must be made” and “we must do everything we can to protect people”, which seems…reasonably suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/58 "2005-12-06T12:26:17Z")
I loved the part where she said that “no prisoners were transported to be tortured elsewhere” 3 times. It sounded a lot like the “I did not have sexual relations with that woman”-Clinton defense. Sure, if you think keeping people awake for days on end and dunking them under water for hours on end isn’t torture, than hey, we are just sending these people over to Club Med !! The EU unfortunately doesn’t have the balls to do anything. I think we should have started boycotting the US as soon as the illegal invasion of Irak started. By the way : didn’t Bush refuse to sign the international treaties against war crime. I think he even went as far to say that if any US soldier would be detained for war crimes, the US would reserve the right to invade the Netherlands to free this prisoner. I think Bush is much, much more dangerous than all the terrorists of the world combined. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/59 "2005-12-06T14:01:10Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Well I think the Irish government is wrong. Why the fuck can’t I or anyone else talk about it here. You can. I just thought it sounded like you were bitching about the US, when you were actually bitching about Ireland being such a collection of weak-assed pussies. My mistake. You can talk about how the Americans are a bunch of pussies too if you want. I just personally hate it when Europeans project their own faults and minority complexes on the Americans. And I will for the world, avoid Europe should fall into the pathetic state of perpetual self-imposed victimhood of always blaming everybody else for their own miserable incompetence. That is the worst kind of dead end. But oh so easy. > [@yojimbo](#): > > You talk about things that you don’t like enough(granted they’re usually about Muslims pissing you off but that’s beside the point). I think you’ll find not one in twenty posts are about the pissing Muslims. But seeing as how much they get noticed perhaps it’s about time I made a new Muslims Are Evil thread. > [@yojimbo](#): > > In between elections what other option is there other than whining? Marching? Well I think I know your opinions on anyone who marches against a government in response to anything Iraq related. Terrorist lovers and North Korean supporters. Haven’t said anything about terrorist lovers. As for the North Korean supporters. It was not my opinion. I was just stating the facts. Here’s a partial list of the organisations which organised the Danish rally against Bush: - **Friendship organisation Denmark – The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.** I.e. North Korea. They think North Korea is the great place and Kim a real working class hero. They’re completely deranged. Here’s a bit from their program I find quite amusing: _”[We work] to further the solidarity with the suppressed people of South Korea, and the Korean peoples struggle for reunion under The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.”_ - **DKP/ml (Danish Communist Party/Marxists Leninists)** – Communist sect which considered Hoxha’s Albania the ideal society. - **DKP (Danish Communistic Party)** – Soviet faithful communists. Don’t know what they’re doing now the Soviet is no more. But those are the guys who stayed loyal with Soviet till the bitter end. - **DKU (Danish Communistic Youth)** - **APK (Workers Party Communists)** - Maoists - **KPiD** – Neo Stalinistic organisation which amongst other things gave Lukasjenkos, the now former dictator of Belarussia, their full support. - **IS/U – International Socialists and Communists** - **Red Youth** - **WCPI (Worker-Communist Party of Iran)** - **Sweden’s Communistic Youth Organisation** – Fuckins Swedes. Enough Said. etc. … As well as the usual rooster of looney and conspiratorial organisations; **Boycott Israel** - and Israel wasn’t even there, but lets not be anal about it, Cuba friendship organisation, a couple which thinks Mossad/CIA was behind 9/11, one which thinks The Baath party is kinda like the European Social Democrats and Saddam a bit like the Swedish PM Goran Petterson. etc. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852/60 "2005-12-06T15:47:31Z")
Some quotes from Condi’s speech: > [@](#): > > …there have long been many other cases where, for some reason, the local government cannot detain or prosecute a suspect, and traditional extradition is not a good option. > > In those cases the local government can make the sovereign choice to co-operate in a rendition. What is “some reason”? And if the suspected is transported TO a European country, did that country get a “choice to co-operate”? And why is she talking about the “local” government rather than the national government? > [@](#): > > Detainees may only be held for an extended period if the intelligence or other evidence against them has been carefully evaluated and supports a determination that detention is lawful. > > (…) > > We cannot discuss information that would compromise the success of intelligence, law enforcement, and military operations. So “intelligence” determines whether the detention is lawful, but “we” cannot discuss that… BOOOO!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rice-to-warn-europe-about-detainee-problem/333852.md?page=4)