# Rich Liberals OPPOSE Cape Cod Windmills-Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215 "2003-07-09T12:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/61 "2003-07-11T20:10:05Z")
Also, wind farms use up a LOT of area. How much does land go for in the Boston area? Offshore placement may be much cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_User\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Some\_User\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_User_Name)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/62 "2003-07-11T21:25:41Z")
Sometimes, I think that the turbine companies want to fail- instead of putting them in corn fields, industrial areas, and other places like this, they decide to put them near nationally known “natural” areas, where people are obviously more sensitive to “visual pollution.” They recently put in a wind farm on a ridge overlooking Davis, WV. (Near Blackwater Falls and the Dolly Sods back country areas.) A two-hundred foot tower on the ridge top, the farm extending for miles over the ridge tops. They are visible for at least 20 miles (that’s when I noticed them on the horizon.) The primary economy of the area is tourism. The towers themselves are actually fairly nice looking; they are very sleek and elegant. The scale is just enormous, but they don’t look large at all, until you get right next to them. I think that they are a great idea, I think that they should be a part of our power grid. I just think that they shouldn’t build them in the areas where they seem to put them in. I guess I have nimvs- not in my vacation spot. (I’ve been reading the boards for several years, and I decide to de-lurk on a thread about _Windmills_?) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/63 "2003-07-11T23:36:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Some\_User\_Name \* > **I think that they are a great idea, I think that they should be a part of our power grid. I just think that they shouldn’t build them in the areas where they seem to put them in. I guess I have nimvs- not in my vacation spot.** Exactly. I don’t think the “Liberals” are being hypocritical at all. Build the windmills. But do you really have to put them _there_? People don’t go to Nantucket for the cheap and clean power. They go for the esthetics. They go for the fabulous views. Some people pay dearly for the priveledge. Is it hypocracy to to want the fabulous view without an eyesore like that? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/64 "2003-07-12T00:09:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > \*\*Is it hypocracy to to want the fabulous view without an eyesore like that? \*\* Yes, it is, **if** you presented yourself as a proponent of clean power. Having a bunch of windmills 5-7 miles offshore is fairly unobtrusive, putting those windmills on land ensures that someone is going to have the things right on top of them. In order to get clean power going, someone will have to make a sacrifice. The question is who, and how much. The suggested answer is “some rich people and tourists” and “a view”. If you are a supporter of clean power, suggest someone else to sacrifice who will have to sacrifice less, I doubt you can find them. Davebear suggested putting them in Boston. I personally think the people of Boston would suffer a whole lot more than the Cape Codders. Imagine the traffic snarles from the construction alone! Not to mention how the Boston skyline would suffer, if we’re thinking about views and tourism. Somebody has to sacrifice. If all that gets sacrificed is a _view_ I think we’re doing pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/65 "2003-07-12T11:11:58Z")
Where windmills are concerned, I tend to agree that the visual pollution argument against them is very persuasive. Possibly the best solution would be to have nuclear power stations that are fully underground, therefore out of sight and out of mind. Such power stations would produce minimal amounts of environmentally unfriendly gases. To take an extreme example, less radon gas would be produced from such power stations than from coal fired stations. Any and all nuclear waste produced could be safely disposed of by sinking containers full of the waste into the subduction zones between the world’s continental tectonic plates. No muss, no fuss. File and forget. That way we would only have nature itself to blame for climate changes as they occur and would occur even without the negligible contribution from humans. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/66 "2003-07-12T11:56:13Z")
In the sense of pure self-interest the turbines would inprove the local air quality which should increase the value of the local properties more than a view would. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/67 "2003-07-12T13:36:28Z")
I am not rich, I am not a liberal, I am for renewable energy and all that shit, but I would definitely oppose those wind generators. The thought of sailing around waters filled with those things is just awful. Would you put them in Yosemite or other beautiful places? People who propose this sort of thing have no idea how intrusive it is. Do you want large sections of the country looking like Altamont pass? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/68 "2003-07-12T13:59:47Z")
The really funny thing about the Cape Cod Windfarms brouhaha is this: a century ago, Cape cod was considered a wilderness…only fishermen and eccentric artists lived there! Nobody in Boston society ever wanted to live in such a place-it was so UNREFINED! So, if this proposal had come up in 1890 or so, there would be NO discussion-the windfarm would be built! Now, because we have changed our sensibilities, the viewof nantucket Sound is considered very valuable…and hence the windfarm (which offers enormous economic benefit) will not be built! I guess I’m a 19th century guy…I like to see smoke-belching factories,and gigantic constructions sites…factories and buildings excite me…I’m like the late andrew Mellon, who built his mansion close tohis steel mills, so he could see his profits being made! To hellwith scenic views and seagulls-I LIKE blast furnaces in fulloperation! ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/69 "2003-07-12T14:22:46Z")
Ya’ll are a bunch of rude bastards. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Some\_User\_Name \* > (I’ve been reading the boards for several years, and I decide to de-lurk on a thread about _Windmills_?) Welcome. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/70 "2003-07-13T16:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > **Yes, it is, if you presented yourself as a proponent of clean power.** If one was a proponant of brain surgery, would one be a hypocrite if one didn’t want brain surgery being performed on one’s kitchen table every night during the dinner hour? It is possible for one to believe in an ideal and simultaneously believe that there are approprite places for that ideal to materialize. There are alternatives, but what I see on this thread is not the smart exploration of those alternatives, but rather a bunch of people wanting to push a “liberal” ideal in liberal faces as a sort of “Ha ha ha be careful what you wish for” attitude. I see very little about it that isn’t childish. > [@](#): > > **Having a bunch of windmills 5-7 miles offshore is fairly unobtrusive** I’ve seen the artists renderings. I would definitely find it intrusive. And I can think of several places in the immediate area where they would be less so. > [@](#): > > **In order to get clean power going, someone will have to make a sacrifice. The question is who, and how much. The suggested answer is “some rich people and tourists” and “a view”. If you are a supporter of clean power, suggest someone else to sacrifice who will have to sacrifice less, I doubt you can find them.** How about near the airport on MV? Ideal spot. I also find it funny that the people that think this is a good idea don’t seem to ever want to vacation there. They seem to blame CCer liberals of having a NIMBY attitude, and yet the Cape is not in these posters’ own back yards. Very interesting. Before you accuse me of the same, read on: > [@](#): > > **Davebear suggested putting them in Boston. I personally think the people of Boston would suffer a whole lot more than the Cape Codders. Imagine the traffic snarles from the construction alone! Not to mention how the Boston skyline would suffer, if we’re thinking about views and tourism.** Read this very carefully: I spend one week per year on the Cape. I spend fifty-one weeks of the year in Boston. Now read this: **I would rather have them in Boston.** Go back and read that again. I would rather have them in my own back yard than that of my favored vacation spot. I am willing to make that sacrifice. As to the skyline comment, the Boston skyline is manmade and mechanical. The addition of more manmade stuff, properly placed, would possibly enhance the skyline. Your argument would suggest that since the WTC would be an eyesore if built in, say, the Mojave Desert, it would be an equal eyesore in in NYC. That’s just absurd. Let me reiterate: I. Live. In. Boston. Please, put these in my back yard. Don’t ruin my vacations just because you have a grudge against liberals. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/71 "2003-07-13T17:49:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > \*\*How about near the airport on MV? Ideal spot. > \*\* And you know that how? Will you provide a link to a wind map of Marth’a Vineyard, showing that the winds near the airport are sufficiently strong and consistent to support a wind farm? Can you confirm that such a structure this close to an airport would have no effect on air safety? Is there sufficient public land available to support the wind farm? I have no problem with people arguing against this proposal–that’s everyone’s right–but just throwing out random alternative locations is a pretty lame way to do it. Have you looked at the [Cape Wind](http://www.capewind.org/) website? Sure, it gives only the positive aspects of the program, but it also details the multitude of factors that need to be taken into consideration when siting a project such as this one, as well as the regulatory hurdles that have to be negotiated. Arguing against such a proposal by continually pointing and saying “Why don’t we put them over there instead?” does not contribute much to the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/72 "2003-07-13T18:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > How about near the airport on MV? Ideal spot. As a pilot, you know what I really want near my airports? 300 ft high towers. Yeah, it’s great having those near airports. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/73 "2003-07-13T19:02:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*As a pilot, you know what I really want near my airports? 300 ft high towers. Yeah, it’s great having those near airports. \*\* Yeah, OK. I was just throwing that out. It occured to me because it’s largely flat and not near a very populated area. I was just trying to brainstorm some ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/74 "2003-07-13T19:41:01Z")
…And there’s a reason why it’s largely flat… ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/75 "2003-07-13T19:46:11Z")
Anyway… This whole issue highlights a real problem. If you can’t get alternative power sources built because people don’t want to LOOK at it, the prospects for new power are pretty grim. I think it’s sad that the same people who have been claiming that global warming is going to destroy the Earth, and who advocate things like energy taxes that punish poor people, restrictions on auto sizes that kill people, etc., are now arguing against renewable energy because they don’t want to have to _look_ at it. Damn it, if you’re an alternative energy advocate, you should WANT to look at a wind farm! It’s the embodiment of everything you claim to stand for. And furthermore, if you show the world that you’re not willing to compromise on something like this, how in hell can you justify forcing others to have to make all kinds of sacrifices for YOUR principles. The people in Cape Cod (at least those who support alternative energy) are being selfish, short-sighted, and hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/76 "2003-07-13T20:11:22Z")
There’s are designs for buildings in cities, which incorporate dozens of small windturbines in the corners of the buildings, giving them a _Metropolis_-like appearance. I don’t remember how much power they were supposed to be capable of generating, but even if they only reduced a building’s utility bill by 10%, that could be a significant savings for some companies. AFAIK, no one’s started construction on them as of yet. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/77 "2003-07-13T22:49:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Some\_User\_Name \* > Sometimes, I think that the turbine companies want to fail- instead of putting them in corn fields, industrial areas, and other places like this, they decide to put them near nationally known “natural” areas, where people are obviously more sensitive to “visual pollution.” Turbine companies don’t decide where they go at all. They just sell the turbines to power companies. 90% of wind turbines are out in the middle of nowhere and you never hear about them. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > Damn it, if you’re an alternative energy advocate, you should WANT to look at a wind farm! It’s the embodiment of everything you claim to stand for. Hey I could get a pretty good look at a piece of steak by sticking my head up a cows ass…but I’d rather take the butcher’s word for it.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/78 "2003-07-14T12:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Hey I could get a pretty good look at a piece of steak by sticking my head up a cows ass…but I’d rather take the butcher’s word for it.😃 \*\* This is just an opinion but I’m pretty sure wind turbines are slightly more attractive than a cow’s colon. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/79 "2003-07-14T12:14:20Z")
Wait a minute. These things re what 300 ft tall (~100m) and they’re 8-10km off shore right? Ok so the apparent height of the towers when you hold you arm out (~1m) would be 1 cm if the observer is 10km away. At this point I’d call bullshit on the visual pollution people. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/80 "2003-07-14T12:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\*Wait a minute. These things re what 300 ft tall (~100m) and they’re 8-10km off shore right? > > Ok so the apparent height of the towers when you hold you arm out (~1m) would be 1 cm if the observer is 10km away. > > At this point I’d call bullshit on the visual pollution people. \*\* So, a height of twice the diameter of the sun. I’d call that significant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215.md?page=5)