# Rich Liberals OPPOSE Cape Cod Windmills-Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215 "2003-07-09T12:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/81 "2003-07-14T12:47:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > **Damn it, if you’re an alternative energy advocate, you should WANT to look at a wind farm! It’s the embodiment of everything you claim to stand for.** That’s a pretty broad generalization of some people. So Cape Codders have absolutely no interests in life except clean energy sources? That is all they live for? Then yes, if they oppose _any_ implementation of said energy, they are hypocrites. But the world is not so simple as you make it out to be. Most real people realize that there can be compromises all around, and that people have interests in various things, and that there are often alternatives that can accomplish the same goals and still be offensive to far fewer people. I’ve noticed that you continue to call these people hypocrites, yet you didn’t address my wish that I want these turbines in my own home town. How come? Is it because I don’t fit into your mold of the typical liberal hypocrite? And if you think a view is nothing to be concerned about, and tourist locations are only there for the wealthy and priviledged, I have some ideas for clean energy: We could put a line of turbines all along the Great Wall. A nuclear reactor would look nifty atop the Palace of Versailles. And the great pyramids would be quite functional if covered in solar panels. Wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/82 "2003-07-14T13:00:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > If one was a proponant of brain surgery, would one be a hypocrite if one didn’t want brain surgery being performed on one’s kitchen table every night during the dinner hour? I prefer to think of it this way, you’re a proponent of brain surgery, and state publicly that it is a preferred treatment for ailment X. You, or a loved one, come down with ailment X and suddenly you change your tune about the validity of brain surgery as a treatment. Nobody suggested CC as a location because they wanted to slam liberals, it was suggested because it’s a really good location to put wind turbines. The resistance to it seems to be because the ‘solution’ to pollution will suddenly _affect_ these people. Heaven forbid the suggested solution actually affect their precious lives! Yes, we want clean power, but just as long as my life is completely unaffected. > [@](#): > > It is possible for one to believe in an ideal and simultaneously believe that there are approprite places for that ideal to materialize. This is true, as long as your ‘appropriate place’ isn’t decided by NIMBYism. > [@](#): > > As to the skyline comment, the Boston skyline is manmade and mechanical. The addition of more manmade stuff, properly placed, would possibly enhance the skyline. Your argument would suggest that since the WTC would be an eyesore if built in, say, the Mojave Desert, it would be an equal eyesore in in NYC. That’s just absurd. Put 10 story high wind turbines on top of NYC’s buildings, and NOBODY would bother to take a picture of that skyline again. Ok, that might be an exaggeration, perhaps the turbines would become as loved as the WTC was. Of course, they might become loved on CC too… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/83 "2003-07-14T13:48:58Z")
I’ll get back to your other comments later, but… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*Put 10 story high wind turbines on top of NYC’s buildings, and NOBODY would bother to take a picture of that skyline again. \*\* Because that would be just goofy. It would look like NYC is wearing beanies. But as I said, turbines around Boston Harbor would look pretty cool, and quite in line with some of the new construction. Besides, Boston’s large tourism industry does not largely depend on what the harbor looks like. People come here for other reasons. Boston would not lose a huge chunk of tourists, and even might gain some. The effect on the Cape would be just the opposite. It’s not just the spoiled liberal hypocrites that would suffer. It’s the tourists, who affect the summer waitrons, who affect the universities, who affect education, which affects jobs, which affects the economy, which affects the standing of the US in world politics, which affects TERRORISM! Is that what you want? TERRORISM? OK, went a bit overboard there. 😃 But be mindful that in a place where the economy is 90% based on tourism, a view is not just a luxury, it is a vital part of peoples’ livelihood. To address the air pollution bit: Wouldn’t Boston benefit much more than the Cape and islands? On the latter, the only real pollution I have experienced is from cars. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/84 "2003-07-14T14:31:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > \*\*So, a height of twice the diameter of the sun. I’d call that significant. \*\* And the width would be 2.5 mm (assume 5 m diameter ~ 15 ft). So you’re objecting to the visual pollution provided by about 130 objects that appear 1 cm tall by 2.5 mm wide (1/2" x 3/32")? Not to mention the fact that you’ll have sea spray, mist, horizon haze etc helping to mitigate those turbines. **tdn** , you’ve got good eyes. 🙂 As for building in cities, imagine a private company trying to get access rights from hundreds of differing people/companies just to lay power cable or do maintenance on the towers. The lack of consistent winds and inability to tie all these turbines together into a cohesive whole will make it even more difficult for these companies to make a profit. Basically it comes down to this; if wind power can’t make headway in the most feasible places, no one will build them in the more difficult places. Wind power will become a secondary addition to the grid placed on building by their owners to offset their electric bills. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/85 "2003-07-14T14:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > **And the width would be 2.5 mm (assume 5 m diameter ~ 15 ft). So you’re objecting to the visual pollution provided by about 130 objects that appear 1 cm tall by 2.5 mm wide (1/2" x 3/32")? Not to mention the fact that you’ll have sea spray, mist, horizon haze etc helping to mitigate those turbines. tdn, you’ve got good eyes. 🙂** Don’t underestimate how big objects of that size could look. The sun/moon is only about 3mm in diameter. And yet people tend to notice those on rare occasions. Take a look at the text you’re reading. Far smaller. Saturday I was at the beach, and it was a fairly typical Summer day. I was resolving all sorts of objects on the horizon, all of which were in the size range you describe. There was a white sailed sloop, a blue and orange sailed sloop, a white sailed ketch, and an orange – um, tanker, I think (Couldn’t really tell, but was about 2.5cm x 1mm). OK, I have good eysight, but my girlfriend with terrible eyesight could see almost all of these as well. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/86 "2003-07-14T15:49:54Z")
So basically they fall within the size of possible boats/ships around the sound? Add to that they won’t move and so are more likely to “blend” away. These turbines are planned to provide 75% of the area’s power in a manner fully capable of avoiding carbon emissions, foreign dependence on oil, coal shipments, and natural gas depletion while making a big splash with the alternative energy crowd. If it works, it’ll spread. If it’s held up for years in the courts, politically knifed in the back by well connected locals wind power will be knocked back. Someone somewhere has to go first. Why not here? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/87 "2003-07-14T17:18:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > **So basically they fall within the size of possible boats/ships around the sound? Add to that they won’t move and so are more likely to “blend” away.** You’re not much of a beach goer, are you? Boats blend in just fine. Something that looks like a gigantic power line does not. (See the links to artists’ renderings given earlier.) In one of your last posts, you give the dimensions for a single turbine. Granted, one would not be all that offensive. But we’re talking about 130 of them in a cluster, the dimesions of which will dominate the landscape. > [@](#): > > **These turbines are planned to provide 75% of the area’s power in a manner fully capable of avoiding carbon emissions, foreign dependence on oil, coal shipments, and natural gas depletion while making a big splash with the alternative energy crowd.** I never disputed that wind power could be beneficial. But in any large building project, there are pros and cons to consider. Just because it looks good on paper doesn’t mean we should willy-nilly start construction without weighing all of the factors. Despoiling the environment, uglifying a national treasure, reducing property values, harming a regional economy – these are factors that all need to be considered. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/88 "2003-07-14T18:12:59Z")
I’m stuck in the midst of hundreds of politicians and not nice ocean beach anywhere. 🙂 As for boats, they blend in because _you expect them there_, not because they’re some kind of benign naturally occurring phenomena. I’m betting most of them will be closer to shore (therefore bigger) and have a greater visual impact due to a higher apparent rate of movement. Aside from that think of the tourism possibilities of tours out around these things, a whole visitor’s centre dedicated to the plan and the trinkets and tourist traps that could be created. These towers will be visually separated anywhere from 8-5.6cm (2.25-1.1”) and they’re only .09” wide (I think). Of course now we’re debating visual aesthetics and I’m lousy at that. The issue, from my perspective, comes down to sentimentality for the Sound. Now if they could fine a useful argument from management of public lands that would be different. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/89 "2003-07-14T19:22:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > **As for boats, they blend in because _you expect them there_, not because they’re some kind of benign naturally occurring phenomena. I’m betting most of them will be closer to shore (therefore bigger) and have a greater visual impact due to a higher apparent rate of movement.** They mostly blend in because boats belong in the ocean. They are part of its charm. What look like big ugly high tension power lines are far less charming. > [@](#): > > \*\*Aside from that think of the tourism possibilities of tours out around these things, a whole visitor’s centre dedicated to the plan and the trinkets and tourist traps that could be created. \*\* I suppose, but _shudder_. I should probably point out that while the tourists of the Cape tend to be more of the trinket & trap variety, those of the islands tend to be more of the “leave me the hell alone to enjoy peace and quiet” types. Usually. With any luck, I’m going to be on MV in about a month. It will be interesting to get some first hand accounts of the natives on this. > [@](#): > > \*\*These towers will be visually separated anywhere from 8-5.6cm (2.25-1.1”) and they’re only .09” wide (I think). Of course now we’re debating visual aesthetics and I’m lousy at that. \*\* Not according to the artist’s rendering. They appear to be clustered much closer together. Of course, that depiction may be faulty, but you’d think that Cape Wind would commission the most flattering depiction possible. > [@](#): > > **The issue, from my perspective, comes down to sentimentality for the Sound.** Don’t discount sentimentality. Entire businesses (including the vacation business) depends on it. And don’t discount natural beauty of the landscape. Without it, the Grand Canyon would be little more than a big trash dump. I’ll be interested to see how this plays out. I’m hoping for the best, but if I have to spend my hard-earned vacations looking at those monstrosities, I’ll be sick to my stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/90 "2003-07-14T20:05:29Z")
Well power boats “belong” in the ocean about as much as wind turbines if we want to be all traditional. Here’s a map of the project [(wind map)](http://www.capewind.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=7&page=1). Now, it is put out by the guy building the thing but it provides a nice overview. Sounds like you know the place so maybe something here will jump out at you. As for the artist impressions, perhaps they’ve stacked them deeper than a few rows which would make the apparent separation between them smaller. Ah well. If you do head up they’ve installed a data gathering tower, so maybe you can get back to us with just how intrusive 130 of those might be. I’d be curious. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/91 "2003-07-14T20:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\*Here’s a map of the project \*\* Yep, I saw that, but… > [@](#): > > **Sounds like you know the place so maybe something here will jump out at you.** Something indeed jumped out. Look at MV, the island on the lower left of the map. Now look at [this](http://www.mvy.com/beach.html) map, and look for beach #14. That is where I like to go most often. Now compare the two. As you can see, the wind farm couldn’t be any less in my way. As a result, I may instead be forced to go to [this](http://www.angelfire.com/folk/slcannex/anec_gay_head.htm) beach. Dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/92 "2003-07-14T22:14:32Z")
The turbines would not be as noticable as the sun or moon because of the simple fact that they don’t give off light and are long and slender. Additionally, they could be painted a matte pale blue-grey color to blend in with the sky. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/93 "2003-07-17T12:16:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > To address the air pollution bit: Wouldn’t Boston benefit much more than the Cape and islands? On the latter, the only real pollution I have experienced is from cars. \*\* You can’t really place wind turbines in cities or hilly areas. The wind patterns are too erratic. ---
**Author:** ![Bixnood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@Bixnood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bixnood)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2022, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/94 "2022-07-24T01:46:56Z")
Sounds like a bunch of rich dead lefties don’t want propaganda fake green energy in their own back yard ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2022, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/95 "2022-07-24T01:51:54Z")
I also hear the windmills cause the dead to rise and feast upon the living. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2022, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/96 "2022-07-24T02:00:05Z")
> [@Bixnood](#): > > …propaganda fake green energy… The kids today make me so proud. Good luck with your future. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2022, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/97 "2022-07-24T02:17:48Z")
Moderating: > [@Bixnood](#): > > Sounds like a bunch of rich dead lefties don’t want propaganda fake green energy in their own back yard Welcome to the forum, @Bixnood. You’ve resurrected a thread from 2003, whether you realize it or not. We normally allow new discussion in old threads, provided you have something new to contribute. As that does not appear to be the case here, I see no reason for the thread to be bumped. Accordingly, this is closed. I encourage you to acquaint yourself with our Registration Agreement and make every effort to comply with our rules. Otherwise, your stay with us will be short. Thanks. > [@Terms of Service and FAQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/registration-agreement-rules-and-faq/823562): > > Terms of Service The current Terms of Service may be viewed [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/tos). ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2022, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rich-liberals-oppose-cape-cod-windmills-why/187215/98 "2022-07-24T02:18:00Z")
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