# Richard Dawkins says American religion holds back science **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2015, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595 "2015-10-05T10:03:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![mpc755](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mpc755/32/7307_2.png) [@mpc755](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mpc755)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/201 "2015-10-11T20:02:58Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And I already provided [a quote from a competent source](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18763358&postcount=167) which refutes that. > > Your own quote from Robert Laughlin also clarifies it. It essentially says that space has physical properties, which is manifestly true, such as vacuum energy and quantum fluctuations. You can call that the “ether” if you like, but it’s not the same as suggesting that an ether is a requirement for the propagation of electromagnetic waves, which you are doing and which is complete nonsense long ago discredited. > > Right. :rolleyes: Since you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about and have been hijacking this thread with this totally off-topic nonsense, I’m no longer participating in the hijack. Laughlin uses the terms matter, quantum solids and fluids, a piece of window glass and ‘stuff’ that describe the ether. All of which have mass. Particles of matter move through and displace the mass which fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter and is what waves in a double slit experiment. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/202 "2015-10-11T20:14:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The US has many of the best universities in the world, and offers an enticing opportunity to the best and the brightest in most of the not-so-great-to-live-in countries. We are going to attract students from pretty much every country in the world, so I’m not sure that ratio says as much about US schools as you seem to think it does. But it’s not just students he’s talking about, it’s also established researchers. As I said earlier, but it probably got lost in all the traffic: \*A lot of the influx of research talent is from other first-world nations and occurs when big money is thrown at them by US institutions, not so much salaries as research facilities. They train 'em, you get the benefits, while religion and far-right paranoia (can’t have all those “liberal” academics around!) both wreak destructive effects on the US educational system. \* Take Canada, for instance. If you have on one hand a Canadian university that is unable even to match the salary offer of one of the wealthy US universities that’s rolling in money, and the US institution is also offering you a lavish research facility, then it would be foolish to turn it down. So the US research establishment flourishes, and the US educational system is given all the credit. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/203 "2015-10-11T20:34:55Z")
> [@mpc755](#): > > Most of the questions facing mainstream physics are correctly understood when you understand there is no such thing as dark matter which travels with the matter. > > The space unoccupied by particles of matter has mass and is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it. > > What ripples when galaxy clusters collide is what waves in a double slit experiment, the mass which fills ‘empty’ space. > > Einstein’s gravitational wave is de Broglie’s wave of wave-particle duality, both are waves in the mass which fills ‘empty’ space. > > The mass which fills ‘empty’ space displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it relates general relativity and quantum mechanics. > > The above is not allowed to be understood due to the religious cult which is mainstream physics. There are so many problems with what you are saying, the pilot-wave and the gravitational wave are two completely different things having completely different forms. An easy way to see this (not that one should be needed), is that a free particle in otherwise empty space generates no gravitational waves, yet there is still a pilot-wave. In addition you say that the particles moving through “the aether” affect “the aether”, but this is clearly at odds with de Broglie-Bohm picture where the quantum potential is unaffected by the motion of the particles. > [@mpc755](#): > > Incorrect. > > de Broglie-Bohm theory is incorrectly named as de Broglie disagreed with it. > > In de Broglie’s double solution theory there is the wave-function wave which is statistical, non-physical and is used to determine the probabilistic results of experiments. There is also the physical wave in a “hidden subquantic medium” which guides the particle. It is a moot point what de Broglie agreed with, but though I don’t have access to the book you quote from, he clearly is only detailing his first reaction (it must be remembered at that time de Broglie himself had abandoned the pilot-wave theory). Clearly from [this paper though](http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf) he then decided that, what he calls ,the “W wave” as a physically reality was in fact possible and his ideas in this paper are based on Bohm’s extension of his own earlier ideas. ---
**Author:** ![mpc755](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mpc755/32/7307_2.png) [@mpc755](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mpc755)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/204 "2015-10-11T20:45:21Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > There are so many problems with what you are saying, the pilot-wave and the gravitational wave are two completely different things having completely different forms. An easy way to see this (not that one should be needed), is that a free particle in otherwise empty space generates no gravitational waves, yet there is still a pilot-wave. > > In addition you say that the particles moving through “the aether” affect “the aether”, but this is clearly at odds with de Broglie-Bohm picture where the quantum potential is unaffected by the motion of the particles. > > It is a moot point what de Broglie agreed with, but though I don’t have access to the book you quote from, he clearly is only detailing his first reaction (it must be remembered at that time de Broglie himself had abandoned the pilot-wave theory). > > Clearly from [this paper though](http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf) he then decided that, what he calls ,the “W wave” as a physically reality was in fact possible and his ideas in this paper are based on Bohm’s extension of his own earlier ideas. I am not discussing de Broglie-Bohm theory. de Broglie disagreed with Bohmian mechanics. I am discussing de Broglie’s double solution theory. In de Broglie’s double solution theory there is the wave-function wave which is statistical, non-physical and is used to determine the probabilistic results of experiments. There is also the physical wave in a hidden subquantic medium which guides the particle. ---
**Author:** ![mpc755](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mpc755/32/7307_2.png) [@mpc755](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mpc755)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/205 "2015-10-11T20:54:54Z")
The religious dogma in mainstream physics is insisting dark matter is a clump of stuff that travels with the matter. This is incorrect. Particles of matter move through and displace the mass which fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter and is what waves in a double slit experiment. Mainstream physics insistence dark matter is a clump of stuff that travels with the matter is the religious dogma which makes mainstream physics a religious cult. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/206 "2015-10-11T21:03:47Z")
> [@mpc755](#): > > I am not discussing de Broglie-Bohm theory. de Broglie disagreed with Bohmian mechanics. > > I am discussing de Broglie’s double solution theory. > > In de Broglie’s double solution theory there is the wave-function wave which is statistical, non-physical and is used to determine the probabilistic results of experiments. There is also the physical wave in a hidden subquantic medium which guides the particle. You’re repeating yourself, as I stated he clearly didn’t disagree. From the paper I quoted what he describes as double solution theory, is broadly speaking what is more commonly called de Broglie-Bohm theory and he even references Bohm as the originator of the “subquantum medium”. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/207 "2015-10-11T21:05:13Z")
> [@mpc755](#): > > The religious dogma in mainstream physics is insisting dark matter is a clump of stuff that travels with the matter. > > This is incorrect. > > Particles of matter move through and displace the mass which fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter and is what waves in a double slit experiment. > > Mainstream physics insistence dark matter is a clump of stuff that travels with the matter is the religious dogma which makes mainstream physics a religious cult. D’ya know it is actually rather dogmatic to simply state something is incorrect rather than demonstrating it is incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![mpc755](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mpc755/32/7307_2.png) [@mpc755](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mpc755)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/208 "2015-10-11T21:18:06Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > You’re repeating yourself, as I stated he clearly didn’t disagree. From the paper I quoted what he describes as double solution theory, is broadly speaking what is more commonly called de Broglie-Bohm theory and he even references Bohm as the originator of the “subquantum medium”. Yes, de Broglie agreed with Bohm in terms of the “subquantic medium”. However, Bohm considered the wave-function wave to be the pilot-wave. This is what de Broglie disagreed with when he said, _“to render impossible the adoption of the pilot-wave theory.”_ NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE _"During the summer of 1951, there came to my attention, much to my surprise, a paper by David Bohm which appeared subsequently in The Physical Review [3]. In this paper Bohm went back to my theory of the pilot-wave, considering the W wave as a physical reality_ He made a certain number of interesting remarks on the subject, and in particular, he indicated the broad outline of a theory of measurement that seemed to answer the objections Pauli had made to my approach in 1927.3 My first reaction on reading Bohm’s work was to reiterate, in a communication to the Comptes rendus de VAcademic des Sciences [4], the objections, insurmountable in my opinion, that seemed to render impossible any attribution of physical reality to the W wave, and consequently, to render impossible the adoption of the pilot-wave theory."\* de Broglie says it is impossible to attribute physical reality to the wave-function wave. There are two waves in de Broglie’s double solution theory. There is the wave-function wave which is statistical, non-physical and is used to determine the probabilistic results of experiments. There is also a physical wave in the hidden subquantic medium which guides the particle. Bohmian mechanics: one wave. de Broglie’s double solution theory : two waves. One mathematical. One physial. ---
**Author:** ![mpc755](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mpc755/32/7307_2.png) [@mpc755](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mpc755)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/209 "2015-10-11T21:21:00Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > D’ya know it is actually rather dogmatic to simply state something is incorrect rather than demonstrating it is incorrect? There is evidence of the hidden subquantic medium every time a double slit experiment is performed, it’s what waves. Are you able to understand in a boat double slit experiment the boat travels through a single slit even when you close your eyes? It’s no different for the particle in a double slit experiment. Ithe always travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the hidden subquantic medium which passes through both. It your religious dogma which does not allow you to understand this. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/210 "2015-10-11T21:31:15Z")
mpc, I thought I recalled you. You’ve been around things with the wacky physics in the past and were warned - multiple times - for such hijacks in 2014. Enough with the hijack. No more of it in this thread. If you must debate it, start a new thread and I expect you to bring evidence and to stop accusing others of ‘religious dogma’. ---
**Author:** ![Sealybobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sealybobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sealybobo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/211 "2015-10-18T23:35:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > This was a piece by Richard Dawkins: > > "Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and author of The Selfish Gene and The God Delusion, said it was a wonder "that America is the leading scientific nation despite having this incubus around its neck of an uncultured ignorant almost majority.“He suggested that if “the fundamentalist-not-quite-majority” were not hindering America, science might have advanced further. “You have to wonder what it could be like if it didn’t have that burden,” he said.” > > [LINK](http://www.christiantoday.com/article/richard.dawkins.ignorant.christians.are.holding.back.science/66207.htm) > ( apologize for the link. I am unable to get a good link to the original source in the Wall Street Journal.) > > Now 2 things strike me here: > > 1. He says while the United States has a huge religious majority he cannot figure out why the US still leads the world in scientific progress. BUT he doesnt say which other countries without such strong religious people are that much better. > > 2. He says that without Americas religious majority scientific progress would be much father ahead. BUT he doesnt say how or where? > I mean Dawkins, who recently turned 70, is saying that if it wasnt for religion, what? We’d have cured cancer by now? We’d be walking on Mars by now? > > He also fails to mention a single scientific investigation that was stopped purely for religious reasons. Did religion stop the recent finding of water on Mars? Has it stopped the super collider from being built? Has it stopped the development of nano technology? The only thing I can see stopped is the issue of stem cells or using parts of aborted fetuses. > > Now I’ve only recently began to study Dawkins because he just this week came to [Kansas City](http://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/books/article37203858.html) and members of my religious circle have been discussing his work. I’ve never read any of his books and have only heard his lectures on the web but it seems to me he is more upset that Americans still hold onto views he despises than in actually proving how we would be better off otherwise. > > I mean the world is a huge place and scientific progress takes place all over from non Christian countries like China and Russia, to semi-religious countries like in Europe, non Christian countries like Japan and India, to countries with major Christian influences like the United States. > > Frankly studying Dawkins he seems to push atheism more than he does science. Also why does a man who yes, has expertise in one area of biology now claim to be an expert in all areas of science (ex. astronomy, paleontology, geology)? In fact what great scientific breakthrough or great invention did Dawkins ever make? > Now I know there are some prominent atheists and evolutionists on this board and I suppose I’m just a dumb redneck from Kansas so I would like to hear some of your thoughts especially those who are big fans of Dawkins. Have you watched the cosmos? There are two versions and both are multiple series. They explain how religion has been holding scientific thought back for thousands of years. It isn’t in America because in America we are free. Religion can’t suppress free thinking here. And thousands of years ago in Greece and the Arab world science flourished but was extinguished by the rulers who used religion to control us. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/212 "2015-10-19T00:03:54Z")
> [@Sealybobo](#): > > …in America we are free. Religion can’t suppress free thinking here. Good to know! ---
**Author:** ![Sealybobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sealybobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sealybobo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/213 "2015-10-19T00:09:49Z")
We understand all the benefits of religion. Ignorance is bliss, the social aspect of it, etc. It’s because we understand all the reasons people believe that we realize it’s a human phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/214 "2015-10-19T18:53:43Z")
> [@Sealybobo](#): > > They explain how religion has been holding scientific thought back for thousands of years. It isn’t in America because in America we are free. Religion can’t suppress free thinking here. Not for lack of trying… See [The Revisionaries](http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/revisionaries/) > [@](#): > > In Austin, Texas, 15 people influence what is taught to the next generation of American children. Once every decade, the highly politicized Texas State Board of Education rewrites the teaching and textbook standards for its nearly five million schoolchildren. […] > > Don McLeroy, a dentist, Sunday school teacher, and avowed young-earth creationist, leads the Religious Right charge. After briefly serving on his local school board, McLeroy was elected to the Texas State Board of Education and later appointed chairman. During his time on the board, McLeroy has overseen the adoption of new science and history curriculum standards, drawing national attention and placing Texas on the front line of the so-called “culture wars.” ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/215 "2015-10-19T20:45:32Z")
[QUOTE=PBS] Don McLeroy, a dentist, Sunday school teacher, and avowed young-earth creationist, leads the Religious Right charge. After briefly serving on his local school board, McLeroy was elected to the Texas State Board of Education and later appointed chairman. [/QUOTE] And who better to run the Texas State Board of Education and exercise extraordinary powers of statewide censorship over textbooks than one of the preeminent lunatics of our times, a man so deranged that there should be a restraining order keeping him from approaching within ten miles of any school. And some of these books are used throughout the nation once Texas sets the standards via its unique statewide power. Makes perfect sense to me. The only thing I can’t figure out is why several posters have said that most of the PhDs they work with come from other countries. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/216 "2015-10-19T21:02:12Z")
> [@Sealybobo](#): > > Have you watched the cosmos? There are two versions and both are multiple series. They explain how religion has been holding scientific thought back for thousands of years. It isn’t in America because in America we are free. Religion can’t suppress free thinking here. And thousands of years ago in Greece and the Arab world science flourished but was extinguished by the rulers who used religion to control us. _Tips fedora_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595.md?page=10)