# Richard Dawkins says American religion holds back science **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2015, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595 "2015-10-05T10:03:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/41 "2015-10-05T17:45:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Ben Carson is a creationist, at least on some level, and it doesn’t seem to have prevented him from reaching a very high level of success in medicine. So I still haven’t seen much evidence that what Dawkins is claiming actually happens. > > Although it may be the case that Carson would define himself more as an intelligent design advocate, but perhaps for Dawkins (and for the SDMB) that’s the same thing. > > Regards, > Shodan Intelligent Design is just a flavor of creationism. It’s not science, for many reasons – chiefly that its advocates look for data that supports their conclusion and ignores other data and conclusions, rather than actively trying to disprove their own hypothesis. As for Carson, medicine is not biology, though there’s obviously lots of overlap. It would be impossible to be a good biologist while rejecting evolution, just as it would be impossible to be a good astronomer while rejecting that the earth is roughly spherical and revolves around the sun. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/42 "2015-10-05T17:57:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Although it may be the case that Carson would define himself more as an intelligent design advocate, but perhaps for Dawkins (and for the SDMB) that’s the same thing. > > Regards, > Shodan Disregard that, Carson is actually a Young Earth Creationist. [http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ben-carson-evolution-absurd-myth-give-me-break](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ben-carson-evolution-absurd-myth-give-me-break) The point here is that just like Bush did talk about “teaching the controversy”, we can expect lots more of anti-science from the biggest bully pulpit if Carson is elected. As Tyson said: “Science literacy is an inoculation against charlatans who would exploit your ignorance of scientific law to then take your money from you or your opportunity from you.” Well, I have to say that Carson’s opportunity to become president has been (or must be) taken away from him by the many voters that do appreciate science. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/43 "2015-10-05T18:11:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Intelligent Design is just a flavor of creationism. It’s not science, for many reasons – chiefly that its advocates look for data that supports their conclusion and ignores other data and conclusions, rather than actively trying to disprove their own hypothesis. Then Dawkins isn’t being a scientist when he made the allegation in the OP, since he apparently didn’t even try to test it, and didn’t produce any data to show it. > [@](#): > > As for Carson, medicine is not biology, though there’s obviously lots of overlap. It would be impossible to be a good biologist while rejecting evolution, just as it would be impossible to be a good astronomer while rejecting that the earth is roughly spherical and revolves around the sun. It sounds like the range of science that is being negatively impacted by religion is getting narrower and narrower. If Dawkins meant only the field of evolutionary biology, he should have said so. Plus, see what **puddleglum** said. If the US spends so much more per capita, and we are more religious than Europeans, then what’s the Europeans’ excuse? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/44 "2015-10-05T18:43:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then Dawkins isn’t being a scientist when he made the allegation in the OP, since he apparently didn’t even try to test it, and didn’t produce any data to show it. Speculation is the start of science, not the end… Little science would have happened without someone asking “I wonder…”. > [@Shodan](#): > > It sounds like the range of science that is being negatively impacted by religion is getting narrower and narrower. If Dawkins meant only the field of evolutionary biology, he should have said so. I think he was correct to go broad – Once you start down the road of accepting things without evidence, you’ve left the realm of science. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/45 "2015-10-05T18:43:52Z")
There’s no reason to think that religion in particular, even fundamentalist religion, is what’s holding back science in the United States. While it probably accounts for the disproportionately lower rates of the population holding to evolutionary theory, it does not account for other anti-scientific policies pursued elsewhere in the developed world such as prohibitions/restrictions of nuclear power and GMO in several European countries which in terms of actual impact on the world, is more harmful than thinking the cosmos is 6000 years old. Even with vaccines this map ([http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/02/06/us/california-measles-vaccines-map.html](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/02/06/us/california-measles-vaccines-map.html)) ably demonstrates that some of the most well-educated, prosperous, and liberal parts of California have abnormally low vaccination rates-keep in mind until California’s recent reforms West Virginia and Mississippi were the only states that did not allow for exemptions for personal reasons for children intending to enroll in public schools. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/46 "2015-10-05T19:04:35Z")
Being anti-science has little to nothing to do with religion. There are lots of non-religious people who are afraid of GMO and work to retard it. PETA and similar groups work very hard to stop animal testing. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/47 "2015-10-05T19:14:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is possible to learn evolutionary theory at a time other than high school. If someone is good enough at biochemistry to become a full time research scientist they can probably pick up what they missed in high school about evolution over a long weekend. > Plus even parents of home schooled children are able to totally shelter their kids from outside ideas. If the kids grow up with access to the internet or a library if they have an interest in evolution then there is almost nothing the parents can do to stop them from learning about it. > As far as affecting the funding for science here is a [list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending) of R&D spending by country. Only South Korea, spends more on R&D per capita. The US spends twice what France and the UK spends per capita. Since Dawkins is British maybe he should find out what primitive superstitions are keeping his country from spending more on science. According to that list the US spends about 40% of the total R&D funding in the world and almost twice what all of Europe spends. I’d guess it’s because its much easier for Dawkins to come to the US and badmouth us horrible Americans, that work within his own country and continent. Some Americans, especially those on the left, are so damn stupid in the way they soak up what someone says as long as they have a British accent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/48 "2015-10-05T19:17:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then Dawkins isn’t being a scientist when he made the allegation in the OP, since he apparently didn’t even try to test it, and didn’t produce any data to show it. He wasn’t making a scientific claim, but I think Dawkins is only right here in a trivial sense – that believing in and advocating for nonsense (like ID/creationism) hinders scientific research. But believing in religion doesn’t necessarily mean believing in nonsense, and doesn’t necessarily impair research – points on which I imagine that Dawkins disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/49 "2015-10-05T19:20:25Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I’d guess it’s because its much easier for Dawkins to come to the US and badmouth us horrible Americans, that work within his own country and continent. > [@](#): > > Some Americans, especially Urbanredneck, are so damn stupid. Richard Dawkins & the [BBC](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=richard+dawkins+bbc) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/50 "2015-10-05T19:24:54Z")
I think the greater point is believing “god did it” and believing the earth is 6000 years old and that humans were made in the garden of eden, that global warming is false, belief in stories like noahs ark, etc, all create a climate this is distrustful or disinterested in science. Our failing education system is the biggest culprit but religion has probably played a minor role in the decline of interest in science in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/51 "2015-10-05T19:29:35Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > For example, there aren’t many people opposing climate research because of religious reasons. I know plenty of people that either flat deny it or at least deny that it’s cause by man, but I’ve never heard any of them offer a religious argument to support that. I’ve seen some arguments (no cite handy) from hard core fundamentalists that environmentalism is a waste of time, because the Rapture is going to happen any minute now, and we shouldn’t be wasting time worrying about a world that God’s getting ready to toss out anyway. But I don’t think this view is particularly common among either Christian fundamentalists or climate change deniers. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/52 "2015-10-05T19:33:03Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I think the greater point is believing “god did it” and believing the earth is 6000 years old and that humans were made in the garden of eden, that global warming is false, belief in stories like noahs ark, etc, all create a climate this is distrustful or disinterested in science. Our failing education system is the biggest culprit but religion has probably played a minor role in the decline of interest in science in the USA. Is there any evidence to indicate interest in science is declining? The evidence suggests otherwise: [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/27/more-students-earning-degrees-in-stem-fields-report-shows](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/27/more-students-earning-degrees-in-stem-fields-report-shows) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/53 "2015-10-05T20:44:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is there any evidence to indicate interest in science is declining? The evidence suggests otherwise: [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/27/more-students-earning-degrees-in-stem-fields-report-shows](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/27/more-students-earning-degrees-in-stem-fields-report-shows) I was referring more to the USA’s place at the bottom of the list for math/science among industrial nations. I think that is mainly the fault of our educations system though. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/54 "2015-10-05T21:01:34Z")
If Americans are not becoming biologists personally I think its more of a money than a religious issue. Also I just dont see how one can make alot of money in most science fields unless they have a Phd. Take Dawkins for example. He taught zoology. However according to this [site](http://www.therichest.com/business/salary/zoologist/), zoologists is about $36,000. With the top people making about $93,000. This [site](http://aquarium.ucsd.edu/Education/Learning_Resources/So_You_Would_Like_To_Be_A_Marine_Biologist/) says a marine biologist with a Phd makes about $54,000 topped out. Other sites say its closer to $74,000 to $124,000. Many STEM jobs make that much and only require a 2 year certificate. So with that in mind, a student interested in science would probably go into engineering. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/55 "2015-10-05T21:04:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I was referring more to the USA’s place at the bottom of the list for math/science among industrial nations. I think that is mainly the fault of our educations system though. America’s “achievement gap” is almost wholly explainable by America’s greater socioeconomic inequality owing to the presence of larger populations that were historically disadvantaged, within comparable groups, Americans do well if not a better than their European and East Asian counterparts: [http://www.tino.us/2011/01/how-well-do-above-average-american-states-do-compared-to-above-average-countries-in-test-scores/](http://www.tino.us/2011/01/how-well-do-above-average-american-states-do-compared-to-above-average-countries-in-test-scores/) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/56 "2015-10-05T21:05:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve seen some arguments (no cite handy) from hard core fundamentalists that environmentalism is a waste of time, because the Rapture is going to happen any minute now, and we shouldn’t be wasting time worrying about a world that God’s getting ready to toss out anyway. But I don’t think this view is particularly common among either Christian fundamentalists or climate change deniers. I am a semi-Christian fundamentalist and I can assure you that such views are very rare to the sense nobody in our Christian group has them and I cannot remember anyone saying such things in my life and believe me, I’ve been around many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/57 "2015-10-05T21:07:45Z")
You’re semi-Christian or semi-fundamentalist? If the latter, what does that even mean? You only take every third sentence in the Bible as literally true? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/58 "2015-10-05T22:41:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve seen some arguments (no cite handy) from hard core fundamentalists that environmentalism is a waste of time, because the Rapture is going to happen any minute now, and we shouldn’t be wasting time worrying about a world that God’s getting ready to toss out anyway. But I don’t think this view is particularly common among either Christian fundamentalists or climate change deniers. In past discussions I found evidence that indeed a slight majority of Republicans do want the government to do something, but the media is not telling many how much out of touch their Republican representatives are. To that we have to add that the current Republican congress critters, even the ones that claim to follow science, are just letting the deniers rule because they do not complain when the worst of them get into committee positions where they can do the most harm. > **[Here Are the 56 Percent of Congressional Republicans Who Deny Climate Change...](https://billmoyers.com/2015/02/03/congress-climate-deniers/)** > > A compilation of the politicians on the wrong side of history. > [@](#): > > Rep. John Shimkus (R-IL-15): During his introductory remarks at a House Subcommittee on Energy and Environment hearing, Representative Shimkus read from the Bible to prove that global warming will not destroy the earth because only God can decide when the earth will end: “The earth will end only when God declares it is time to be over. Man will not destroy this earth. This earth will not be destroyed by a flood.” [House Subcommittee on Energy and Environment Hearing, 3/25/2009] > [@](#): > > Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX-06): “I don’t deny that the climate is changing. I think you can have an honest difference of opinion on what’s causing that change without automatically being either all-in that it’s all because of mankind or it’s all just natural. I think there’s a divergence of evidence … I would point out if you’re a believer in the Bible, one would have to say the Great Flood is an example of climate change. And that certainly wasn’t because mankind overdeveloped hydrocarbon energy.” [Raw Story, 4/10/13] > [@](#): > > Rep. Todd Rokita (R-IN-04): “97 percent of some of the liberal scientists polled believe humans are doing this. This is not settled science just like perhaps many pf those same scientists — 97 percent perhaps — believe there is no god. But they don’t know there’s no science on that. So scientists like the rest of us humans can have beliefs but that doesn’t make it science.” [Mother Jones, 10/28/14] > [@](#): > > Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC-05): “North Carolina Republican Virginia Foxx referenced books by climate-change skeptics and lamented that some environmentalists ‘think that we, human beings, have more impact on the climate and the world than God does.’” [Huffington Post, 4/7/11] > [@](#): > > Rep. Mark Walker (R-NC-06): “We can be green without being extreme. Much of the ‘so-called’ science of climate change is contested though it’s made a few politicians quite wealthy. I believe that God provided the earth to us and we have a responsibility to conserve and respect the environment.” [Walker for North Carolina, last accessed 12/8/14] > [@](#): > > Rep. Doug LaMalfa (R-CA-01): “The climate of the globe has been fluctuating since God created it.” [Redding Record, 9/24/14] > [@](#): > > Rep. Jeff Miller (R-FL-01): “I have scientists that I rely on, the scientists that I rely on say our climate has changed. It wasn’t just a few years ago, what was the problem that existed? It wasn’t global warming, we were gonna all be an ice cube. We’re not ice cubes. Our climate will continue to change because of the way God formed the earth.” According to BuzzFeed, earlier at the same event, Miller announced his intentions to defund the Environmental Protection Agency and responded to questions about a scientific consensus on climate change by saying none existed. [BuzzFeed, 8/14/13] I think I have mentioned this situation before, it may be that science is funded more than in other countries, it may be that educationally speaking we are in a good place, but the problem is that the ones in power are indeed the weakest link on the way to make the changes that are needed. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/59 "2015-10-05T23:10:10Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > For example, there aren’t many people opposing climate research because of religious reasons. I know plenty of people that either flat deny it or at least deny that it’s cause by man, but I’ve never heard any of them offer a religious argument to support that. I have. [Why Do Evangelicals Like James Inhofe Believe That Only God Can Cause Climate Change?](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120889/evangelical-james-inhofe-says-only-god-can-cause-climate-change) _They’re more likely to attribute extreme weather to the apocalypse_ “My point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous,” [Senator James Inhofe] said in a 2012 address given to a Voice of Christian Youth America radio program. And in his theological belief that the environment is outside of humanity’s control, Inhofe is not alone. For evangelical Protestants, accepting climate change but attributing it to God’s direct or indirect intervention, rather than human activity, appears to be the new party line … Religion has been in opposition to science throughout recorded history, from Copernicus and Galileo to modern-day embryonic stem cell research, climate science, and the teaching and study of evolution. In some jurisdictions textbooks are being mutilated to downplay science that challenges religious orthodoxy like evolution. Stephen Hawking was once cautioned by the Pope to “not inquire” into the origin of the universe. And I respectfully disagree with **John Mace** on the critical importance of federal funding, which is influenced by political factors which are in turn influenced by the religious vote. No individual(s) could possibly hope to match, either in dollar amounts nor in the expertise with which – and long-term goals for which – federal funds are allocated to such institutions as DARPA, the NSF, NIH, and NASA, to name a few. All that said, I agree with the numerous posters here who consider Dawkins’ observation to be a relatively trivial matter. Does religion tend to set back science? Yes. How much? In the US and throughout the first world, not much. Dawkins is a brilliant scientist, an interesting and often provocative thinker, and sometimes annoying in his stridency. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/60 "2015-10-05T23:37:12Z")
I like Dawkins and am super-atheist, but to me there is no particular surprise: except in extreme cases, religion is simply not a dominant factor in the overall scientific progress of a nation. There are obviously effects at a small scale, like the whole stem-cell thing, but averaged out the effects are totally dominated by factors such as economic health, presence of top-tier education, creative spirit, and so on. For all I know, religion may have a positive effect in some of these other areas. I don’t necessarily think it’s true, but the “Protestant work ethic” is often held up as one source of American economic power. Scientific progress is going to be primarily based on how much of your total output you can dedicate to research. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595.md?page=4)