# Richard Dawkins says American religion holds back science **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2015, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595 "2015-10-05T10:03:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/101 "2015-10-07T16:06:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You got a cite for that? While I’m not at a university I do hire PhDs. I don’t remember the last time I’ve seen a resume from someone born in the US. And while we obviously do not ask about this, I strongly suspect few if any of the PhDs I hire are Christian. > As for universities, very few of the professors I know in my field under 40 were born in the US. > I’m not complaining, I love how we steal really smart people from other countries. While we are using anecdotal evidence (but muh scientific atheism), I also presume that not that many of your hires are African Americans, mestizos, or full-blooded American Indians even accounting for proportion of population. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Evidence? > > LOTS of hate mail you say??? Has he ever given an actual number? > > Well no matter. Lets stop and think. > > Lets say he can pull out a file and show 1,000 pieces of “hate” mail. The US has 300 million people. Plus his books are sold in other countries like the UK and Canada so lets figure 500 million. He has been written 13 books since 1976 (39 years). > > Let’s do some math. > > So how bad then is 1,000 or even 10,000 or heck even 100,000 pieces of mail from a country with a population of 300 million or a potential audience of 500 million in 39 years (100,000 of 300 million is .03%) > > AND the man uses those letters to be the foundation of his argument that all Americans are “moronic creationists” that hate science and can somehow influence all government and private scientific research? Yes, its laughable to use hate mail as any sort of barometer of public opinion considering the sort of people who are angry or upset enough to actually go through the entire bothersome process of composing a letter and mailing it are already not representative of the population at large. Its like thinking YouTube comments are accurate barometers of public opinion in which case the vast majority of our populations are 13 year old Nazis with a penchant for calling each other “gay”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/102 "2015-10-07T16:08:30Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > AND the man uses those letters to be the foundation of his argument that all Americans are “moronic creationists” that hate science and can somehow influence all government and private scientific research? Dawkins did not said that, so that is a strawman; and even you made that clear in the OP, Dawkins was referring to the almost majority, indeed still a minority that is however the one driving the ship of congress and limiting what science is recommending that we should do. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/103 "2015-10-07T16:11:40Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes, its laughable to use hate mail as any sort of barometer of public opinion considering the sort of people who are angry or upset enough to actually go through the entire bothersome process of composing a letter and mailing it are already not representative of the population at large. Its like thinking YouTube comments are accurate barometers of public opinion in which case the vast majority of our populations are 13 year old Nazis with a penchant for calling each other “gay”. Indeed, they are supposed to be the minority, but they are being elected and doing harm in congress and other positions of power, what we need to concentrate is to figure out why is that we are letting that happen. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/104 "2015-10-07T16:18:34Z")
[QUOTE=Urbanredneck] AND the man uses those letters to be the foundation of his argument that all Americans are “moronic creationists” that hate science and can somehow influence all government and private scientific research? [/QUOTE] Using hypebole to argue against hyperbole is like fucking for virginity. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/105 "2015-10-07T16:32:08Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Dawkins isn’t wrong, he’s just being hyperbolic. The negative impact of religion on science in America isn’t large, but it isn’t zero, either. Dawkins is wrong and he’s a dumb-ass when it comes to religion. It’s a classic example of ad hominem + association fallacy. There is absolutely no proof that religion holds back science. There may be a few minor areas (like the aforementioned stem cell research) that are slowed but I’ve given examples of non-religious (even anti-religious) groups that hold back science. There are plenty of examples of American Christians doing great work in science. Edward Morley was a preacher during his life. Francis Collins is instrumental in the human genome project. How does Dawkins explain the success of the Jewish scientists? If someone wants to make a strong statement like Dawkins he better back it up with some decent facts. Until then he’s a dumb-ass. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/106 "2015-10-07T16:37:35Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Dawkins is wrong and he’s a dumb-ass when it comes to religion. It’s a classic example of ad hominem + association fallacy. There is absolutely no proof that religion holds back science. There may be a few minor areas (like the aforementioned stem cell research) that are slowed but I’ve given examples of non-religious (even anti-religious) groups that hold back science. > > There are plenty of examples of American Christians doing great work in science. Edward Morley was a preacher during his life. Francis Collins is instrumental in the human genome project. How does Dawkins explain the success of the Jewish scientists? > > If someone wants to make a strong statement like Dawkins he better back it up with some decent facts. Until then he’s a dumb-ass. That must be a record for the number of times a poster contradicts himself within one post. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/107 "2015-10-07T16:48:03Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes, its laughable to use hate mail as any sort of barometer of public opinion considering the sort of people who are angry or upset enough to actually go through the entire bothersome process of composing a letter and mailing it are already not representative of the population at large. Isn’t that kind of the point, though? _One_ piece of moronic hate mail may just be one irrelevant hateful moron, but a thousand such (!) suggests that there may be a substantially larger population that has similar ideas, but does not bother to write. Lots of people in public or semi-public roles apply a similar rough calculus, like a Congressman inferring the mood of X% of hisconstituents based on a relative handful of communications. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its like thinking YouTube comments are accurate barometers of public opinion in which case the vast majority of our populations are 13 year old Nazis with a penchant for calling each other “gay”. Youtube comments are vastly easier than actual letters. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/108 "2015-10-07T17:14:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That must be a record for the number of times a poster contradicts himself within one post. I’d say that was the record for pointless posts but that’s a pretty high bar at the SDMB. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/109 "2015-10-08T01:07:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > While we are using anecdotal evidence (but muh scientific atheism), I also presume that not that many of your hires are African Americans, mestizos, or full-blooded American Indians even accounting for proportion of population. Wrong on the first one. I think wrong on the second (I’m not sure what that means around here.) I’ve never turned down a resume from the third class - I’ve never gotten one. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/110 "2015-10-08T01:13:57Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Evidence? > > LOTS of hate mail you say??? Has he ever given an actual number? > > Well no matter. Lets stop and think. > > Lets say he can pull out a file and show 1,000 pieces of “hate” mail. The US has 300 million people. Plus his books are sold in other countries like the UK and Canada so lets figure 500 million. He has been written 13 books since 1976 (39 years). > > Let’s do some math. > > So how bad then is 1,000 or even 10,000 or heck even 100,000 pieces of mail from a country with a population of 300 million or a potential audience of 500 million in 39 years (100,000 of 300 million is .03%) > > AND the man uses those letters to be the foundation of his argument that all Americans are “moronic creationists” that hate science and can somehow influence all government and private scientific research? Others have already pointed out your strawman. But you should read up sometime on how legislators and TV programs react to letters. He made this comment in books written before Internet comment areas made moronic comments an art form. Remember - back then people had to actually write letters. I have no idea of the count - but it was enough to inspire him to write several books explaining evolution in a way that directly addressed their misconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/111 "2015-10-08T04:51:38Z")
I’d like to change this up a bit. Dawkins will be in Kansas City [tomorrow](https://richarddawkins.net/bcd-book-tour/)to give a speech and sell his books at Unity on the Plaza church. Tickets are $250 for VIP (means you get to shake his hand and eat a cookie with him) or $30 general admission. Price includes an autographed copy of his latest book. The building holds 1200 people. Would you go? If so would you spend the $250 or $30? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/112 "2015-10-08T05:01:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I’d like to change this up a bit. > > Dawkins will be in Kansas City [tomorrow](https://richarddawkins.net/bcd-book-tour/)to give a speech and sell his books at Unity on the Plaza church. Tickets are $250 for VIP (means you get to shake his hand and eat a cookie with him) or $30 general admission. Price includes an autographed copy of his latest book. The building holds 1200 people. > > Would you go? > > If so would you spend the $250 or $30? Do you know if he plans to stop at the creation museum??? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/113 "2015-10-08T07:20:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. He’s a comedian. If he pisses you off, then maybe you’re just not into his kind of humor. Except his style of humor is that he’s always telling what he thinks is the truth. There is no “I’m just kidding” defense, as he says what he means. I’m perfectly capable of finding that stuff funny. I even admitted that I find some of his stuff funny. But he also has some repugnant views, and it comes out in his show all the time. His reason for hating religion comes from a place of bigotry. He doesn’t remotely act like someone who cares about anyone other than himself. And because I don’t want to make a second post: Yes, he isn’t just in it for the jokes. But he is in it for himself. He brings guests on to attack them. He flat out said he gave money to Obama because he was worried about losing his own money in another financial crisis. He’s just a shitty human being who gets off because he’s on the “right side” and because he can sometimes make people laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/114 "2015-10-08T10:07:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Do you know if he plans to stop at the creation museum??? [THAT](http://creationmuseum.org/) is in Kentucky, not Kansas. Work on your geography. But that does make me wonder, why a church, even a Unity one, would allow in an atheist? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/115 "2015-10-08T10:43:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Except his style of humor is that he’s always telling what he thinks is the truth. There is no “I’m just kidding” defense, as he says what he means. I’m perfectly capable of finding that stuff funny. I even admitted that I find some of his stuff funny. > > But he also has some repugnant views, and it comes out in his show all the time. His reason for hating religion comes from a place of bigotry. He doesn’t remotely act like someone who cares about anyone other than himself. > > And because I don’t want to make a second post: Yes, he isn’t just in it for the jokes. But he is in it for himself. He brings guests on to attack them. He flat out said he gave money to Obama because he was worried about losing his own money in another financial crisis. > > He’s just a shitty human being who gets off because he’s on the “right side” and because he can sometimes make people laugh. Well this thread is about Richard Dawkins and not Bill Maher but since you’ve made those statements about Maher I think they require comment. Maher is someone who, in the tradition of Jon Stewart and many others, uses humor to reveal truths and expose hypocrites and idiots and helps to enlighten us all, sometimes with well-researched facts that we might not otherwise have known. I can understand why some don’t like him – his political opponents certainly don’t like him because he’s forceful and effective, and many don’t like him just because he’s abrasive – his humor tends toward the sharply sarcastic and sometimes politically incorrect. And yes, “I’m just kidding” **is** a defense because it’s obvious when he’s just kidding, though he sometimes actually comes out and says so to placate the nervous PC types. Like the “New Rules” segment at the end of his show. Show me someone who believes that “New Rules” means that Bill Maher is trying to impose a new system of laws! “New Rules” is a comedic segment that uses humor to illustrate the follies of the politics and culture of our times. The only people who should be offended are the idiots that it parodies, who deserve it – wherever they may be on the political spectrum. And you couldn’t be more wrong about the guests – “He brings guests on to attack them” – by “them” I presume you mean religious types. Whatever it is you mean, Maher constantly brings on guests with different or entirely opposite points of view to his own. That’s what makes the damn show interesting! Not long ago Rick Santorum was the featured interview. Some time before it was Mike Huckabee. There’s almost always at least one conservative panelist or special guest. Not long ago Steve Schmidt, a Republican Party strategist, and conservative pundit Mary Matalin were two of the three main panelists, and poor old Democrat Gavin Newsome was on his own. And not long after Mike Huckabee was on, BTW, Maher had as his special guest Sister Helen Prejean, a Roman Catholic nun whose religion inspired her to become an advocate against the death penalty (her story was the basis for the movie _Dead Man Walking_) with whom he had a wonderful and respectful interview. I can only think that you need to watch the show more before commenting on it, because the claims you’re making just make no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/116 "2015-10-08T14:29:44Z")
If you want to see Maher “almost” get religion, see his interview with Sister Helen Prejean (she of the _Dead Man Walking_ movie). She was fantastic, and Maher was a wee bit humbled. He can make common cause with someone like her. This was only a few weeks ago, but I don’t remember when. ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/117 "2015-10-09T22:19:11Z")
> [@](#): > > But believing in religion doesn’t necessarily mean believing in nonsense… Nonsense is perhaps an overly emotive term, but I am unaware of any religion which does not require it’s adherents to believe some things which are, at the very least, not justified by the evidence. If one exists, I would question using the label of ‘religion’ rather than, for example ‘philosophy’ or ‘culture’. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/118 "2015-10-09T23:15:08Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But that does make me wonder, why a church, even a Unity one, would allow in an atheist? The same way that a secular organisation would allow a religious person, to talk about things? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/119 "2015-10-10T01:51:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Wrong on the first one. I think wrong on the second (I’m not sure what that means around here.) I’ve never turned down a resume from the third class - I’ve never gotten one. And what makes you so certain that the African-Americans or Latinos you hired weren’t Christians? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595/120 "2015-10-10T01:55:51Z")
> [@Mikeisskeptical](#): > > Nonsense is perhaps an overly emotive term, but I am unaware of any religion which does not require it’s adherents to believe some things which are, at the very least, not justified by the evidence. . So? Some scientists believe things for which there is no evidence, such as the Pleistocene overkill hypothesis. And they accepted for the basis of thought/experiment other things, phlogiston for example, luminiferous aether, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-dawkins-says-american-religion-holds-back-science/733595.md?page=7)