# Richard III: Died for the want of a horse, found under a car park **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 4, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299 "2013-02-04T13:04:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/81 "2013-02-06T02:25:33Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I am somewhat boggled that there is a society dedicated, not to the English monarchy, nor the medieval English monarchy, but to a _specific_ English monarch. Do other kings have fan clubs? Is there a William Rufus Society? George II? Dueling Stephen and Matilda Societies? > > The William V Adoration Society, of course, is flourishing and comprises pretty much the entire population of the U.K. and the U.S. > > Are these Richard III people history buffs, or crackpots a la the Bacon-was-Shakespeare crowd? There’s now a thread in GQ specifically asking about the Ricardians and their motivations ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/82 "2013-02-06T11:21:38Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I am somewhat boggled that there is a society dedicated, not to the English monarchy, nor the medieval English monarchy, but to a _specific_ English monarch. Do other kings have fan clubs? Is there a William Rufus Society? George II? Dueling Stephen and Matilda Societies? > > The William V Adoration Society, of course, is flourishing and comprises pretty much the entire population of the U.K. and the U.S. > > Are these Richard III people history buffs, or crackpots a la the Bacon-was-Shakespeare crowd? Historical society ladies (and gents) are frequently crazy cat ladies who focus on historical figures rather than cats, if that helps to sum it up. Or if you’re a Doctor Who fan, they can be a bit like Ian Levine. While professional historians do appreciate their enthusiasm (due to their passion they can and do frequently uncover important information that professionals may not have the time for, and they are usually very good at bringing history to the general public), some of them can be a bit…off, if not arrogantly proprietary about their focus subject. I’ve encountered a few in my time who have actually kept information and archival records away from people (including professinal historians and researchers) whom they don’t think share the same passion and appreciation, and it can be annoying as fuck, frankly. Also, it’s true, no way could a tyrant be handsome! Look at this handsome chap – I’ll bet he had a terrific career in Hollywood. [http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/6/2/3/128623.jpg?v=1](http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/6/2/3/128623.jpg?v=1) ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/83 "2013-02-06T11:39:47Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/84 "2013-02-06T12:12:32Z")
Huh - I have a student who has been quite vocal that the entire dig and discovery is a hoax and a publicity stunt staged by the University of Leicester (rather brave of him considering that his main adviser, my colleague, is one of the leading authorities on R3). Claims it’s all made up – random skeleton planted at the site, that DNA isn’t that different from one person to the next, etc. (My response was, ‘Even without the DNA tests, a 15th century skeleton found pretty much at the location from the historical record and bearing a spine with more curves in it than a Welsh B road doesn’t convince you even a little?’) ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/85 "2013-02-06T12:26:18Z")
> [@Ms\_Boods](#): > > Historical society ladies (and gents) are frequently crazy cat ladies who focus on historical figures rather than cats, if that helps to sum it up. Or if you’re a Doctor Who fan, they can be a bit like Ian Levine. > > While professional historians do appreciate their enthusiasm (due to their passion they can and do frequently uncover important information that professionals may not have the time for, and they are usually very good at bringing history to the general public), some of them can be a bit…off, if not arrogantly proprietary about their focus subject. > > I’ve encountered a few in my time who have actually kept information and archival records away from people (including professinal historians and researchers) whom they don’t think share the same passion and appreciation, and it can be annoying as fuck, frankly. > > Also, it’s true, no way could a tyrant be handsome! Look at this handsome chap – I’ll bet he had a terrific career in Hollywood. > > [http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/6/2/3/128623.jpg?v=1](http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/6/2/3/128623.jpg?v=1) Wow - great metaphor! You painted a portrait in eighteen words. So you’re saying the Ricardians are similar to the hardcore Civil War re-enactors here in the U.S., the kind that research what stitches Confederate soliders used to mend their shirts, and what sort of apples were eaten by Union calvary. (Yes, some really do). And I’ll bite - who was the man in your link? He did look a bit like a member of a boy-band. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/86 "2013-02-06T12:40:22Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > And I’ll bite - who was the man in your link? He did look a bit like a member of a boy-band. That’s a 20-something Joseph Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/87 "2013-02-06T12:42:31Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > So it seems a member of the Richard III Society, called Philippa Langley, uncovered some research that that pointed toward Richard’s grave being in this council run car park… In all the press coverage, Langley has been routinely described as a ‘screenwriter’. Has anything she has written actually been produced? ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/88 "2013-02-06T12:55:43Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Wow - great metaphor! You painted a portrait in eighteen words. So you’re saying the Ricardians are similar to the hardcore Civil War re-enactors here in the U.S., the kind that research what stitches Confederate soliders used to mend their shirts, and what sort of apples were eaten by Union calvary. (Yes, some really do). > > And I’ll bite - who was the man in your link? He did look a bit like a member of a boy-band. **lisacurl** has it in one – that’s the dishy love child of Keanu Reeves and Johnny Depp, the Kremlin Highlander himself, Joseph Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/89 "2013-02-06T13:59:12Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > “My kingdom for a parking spot!” > > This Misterious Circumstances seem to be a comunicable disease. Have they found a cure? Abstinence from medieval power politics. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/90 "2013-02-06T14:31:52Z")
So how did they find him? Did someone follow a hunch? ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/91 "2013-02-06T14:43:07Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Prince Edmund, AKA ‘The Blackadder’, sought for questioning. 😃 “A car park? THAT was your cunning plan, Baldrick?” ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/92 "2013-02-06T14:59:27Z")
> [@Eutychus](#): > > So how did they find him? Did someone follow a hunch? Yes, that and a very thorough search engine. Apparently they had it on good authority. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/93 "2013-02-06T15:03:35Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > “A car park? THAT was your cunning plan, Baldrick?” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/94 "2013-02-06T15:21:22Z")
They don’t plan to test the Princes in the tower for a match with Richard III. > **[One royal secret that won't be revealed... Richard III has been unearthed but...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2274247/Richard-III-unearthed-princes-tower-stay-buried.html)** > > Previously secret documents show that the Church of England, backed by the Queen, has refused repeated requests by experts to test skeletons in Westminster Abbey. > [@](#): > > The king’s nephews Edward and Richard were kept in the Tower of London, according to history recorded at the time, and ‘stifled with pillows by the order of their perfidious uncle Richard the Usurper’, according to the inscription on the urn their remains are kept in. > > Leicester University’s Turi King said this week they could take DNA from the princes and match it with Richard III to find if they were related. > > But a Westminster Abbey spokeswoman told the Guardian: ‘The recent discovery of Richard III does not change the abbey’s position, which is that the mortal remains of two young children, widely believed since the 17th century to be the princes in tower, should not be disturbed.’ > > The Richard III Society, who were behind this week’s confirmation of the monarch’s identity, tried twice to get the urn opened in 1993 with the BBC and in 1995 with Channel 4. > > But the Dean of Westminster the Very Rev Michael Mayne refused to allow carbon dating and DNA testing to get to the bottom of the mystery. > > In 1993 he took advice from academics and experts who said the techniques would only age the bones to within 50 years, and as Richard III only reigned from 1483 to 1485 it would not be accurate enough. > > ‘It could not therefore differentiate between Richard III or Henry VII – or another – being the guilty party. Nor would the C/14 technique give any clue as to the age at death of the children,’ the Dean said. > > The Palace and Home Secretary at the time, Michael Howard, were all consulted and were in ‘full agreement’. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/95 "2013-02-06T15:21:24Z")
> [@Ms\_Boods](#): > > **lisacurl** has it in one – that’s the dishy love child of Keanu Reeves and Johnny Depp, the Kremlin Highlander himself, Joseph Stalin. Well, yes, he _is_ something of a hottie in that photo, I’ll grant you. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/96 "2013-02-09T05:38:19Z")
So should the late Richard III now get a (Catholic) state funeral? He _was_ a king, after all, for all his faults, and he didn’t get one immediately after his death for obvious political reasons. And if he does get one, and you were the Prime Minister, would you advise the Queen - or some other member of the Royal Family - to attend? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/97 "2013-02-09T10:03:37Z")
Richard the Third Ought never to have occurred. One can only wonder At so grotesque a blunder. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/98 "2013-02-09T11:37:32Z")
Looks like they found his horse. They were cleaning out the old stock from the Freezers in the local Tesco Its all a bit embarrassing really. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/99 "2013-02-09T18:08:50Z")
Langley sounds like the president of the Justin Bieber Fan Club. > [@Eutychus](#): > > So how did they find him? Did someone follow a hunch? I see what you did there. > [@bup](#): > > In her book about [Queen Isabella](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/111219.Queen_Isabella), Alison Weir argues pretty convincingly that Edward II, even if he was killed, was not killed the way Christopher Marlowe said. Not historical evidence, or testimony - just basically, it wouldn’t work. Red hot pokers just won’t go up butts like that. I think Vlad the Impaler would dispute that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299/100 "2013-02-09T19:09:25Z")
> [@bup](#): > > In her book about [Queen Isabella](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/111219.Queen_Isabella), Alison Weir argues pretty convincingly that Edward II, even if he was killed, was not killed the way Christopher Marlowe said. Not historical evidence, or testimony - just basically, it wouldn’t work. Red hot pokers just won’t go up butts like that. A couple of years ago I read Ian Mortimer’s book, The Perfect King: The Life of Edward III, and Mortimer argues that not only was Edward II not killed by a hot poker up the arse, he wasn’t murdered at all, but escaped and lived for more than a decade after his supposed death, as a recluse. And that Edward III knew his father was alive, and was in communication with him. But the poker thing makes for a better story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richard-iii-died-for-the-want-of-a-horse-found-under-a-car-park/649299.md?page=6)