# Richmond Times-Dispatch, for shame **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834 "2010-10-20T23:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@cards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cards)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/41 "2010-10-22T12:52:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We get paid less than our private sector counterparts, … Just wanted to put in play a fact here: > **[tbb-59.pdf](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/tbb-59.pdf)** > > 212 B Oh and I realize the source is a conservative source, but they are generally even handed in their methodology and in this case, I haven’t seen any serious rebuttal from liberal sources. ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/42 "2010-10-22T13:18:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why do people keep telling me to “deal with it”? If the database not only provided my salary, but my total net worth, my birthday, and all the types of jobs I’ve ever held, would that be alright to reveal in a database as well? Would I just have to “deal with it” in that case as well? I wouldn’t like having my name and salary published either. But the fact is when you took the job as a state employee you knew anyone could find out how much you make. At the time you calculated that people were unlikely to go through the time consuming process so your salary would be safe. Your objection is the newspaper made the process easy so that calculation is no longer valid. You really only have two choices at this point - get another job or deal with the fact your salary as a state employee will be easily known. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/43 "2010-10-22T13:37:40Z")
Well, if your state is like Colorado, there are a whole lot of you. So that’s information on a whole lot of people. If your buddies look up your salary, they probably already had a decent idea anyway. The people who use this info to market you with financial stuff and whatever could already get it, it was just harder. A friend of mine who worked for the start was always super annoyed that her administrative assistant, who had no college degree but who’d been working for the state since she was 18, made more than my friend. Every time my friend’s salary got bumped up, so did her assistant’s. She figured she would have to work there for eight years and bump up a grade before she could out-earn her assistant, and she resented it. But she knew that without its being published–so did the assistant. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/44 "2010-10-22T13:58:41Z")
This reminds me of the [auto-avatar kerfuffle](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579165). People were cool with having their photos in an out-of-the-way location, but once someone suggested putting the photos right up in everyone’s faces a few people freaked out. I actually can see both sides of the argument here, very clearly. So there is no place for me in this thread. GOOD DAY, SIR! ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/45 "2010-10-22T14:53:45Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > We make government expenditures public because the people want to know how their tax money is being spent. But as far as I know, we don’t make other government expenditures public, such as how much a particular person received in federal student aid or social security disability, or how much a particular person incurred in bills to Medicare in a given year. It’s voyeurism of a sort. People want to know what the government spends on “other people” – i.e., government employees – but do not want to disclose what the government spends on them. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/46 "2010-10-22T15:04:09Z")
> [@cards](#): > > Just wanted to put in play a fact here: > > [http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-59.pdf](http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-59.pdf) > > Oh and I realize the source is a conservative source, but they are generally even handed in their methodology and in this case, I haven’t seen any serious rebuttal from liberal sources. This compares all government employees with all private sector employees. In fact when you compare employees who do not require a degree, public sector workers make more. For employees who do require a degree, they make considerably less. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/47 "2010-10-22T15:35:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But don’t just put my name in a database with a salary, job title, and nothing else. What the hell does that do but tell you that I make more or less than you do? Would discovering the low salary of a rude DMV employee mitigate his or her bad behavior? No. They should be disciplined whether they’re making $75,000 or $20,000. First off, when I worked for the government, it was the law to not only provide salary information for all employees, but to actually PUBLISH that information. As such, it’s not the newspaper doing this, it’s the government sending it to the newspaper and paying them to publish it. Secondly, so you’re not actually upset for them providing information on you - but for providing TOO LITTLE information? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/48 "2010-10-22T16:32:28Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > First off, when I worked for the government, it was the law to not only provide salary information for all employees, but to actually PUBLISH that information. As such, it’s not the newspaper doing this, it’s the government sending it to the newspaper and paying them to publish it. In this case, the link says that the paper FOIA’ed the information. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/49 "2010-10-22T16:45:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In my position as a Federal employee, the public has access to not only my salary, but also an annual financial disclosure report which contains things like roughly how\*\* much money I have in my bank account\*\*, what stocks/mutual funds I own, and the like. Bolding added. What financial disclosure report are you submitting? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/50 "2010-10-22T16:54:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Secondly, what the hell are you saying, man? What does “when you agree to shit” even mean? \*\*Rand Rover \*\*has an umpteen-billion page thread where he’s trying to explain why he’s not a retard for complaining about being gently reminded that he is encouraged by his firm to conduct 20 hours of pro bono work per year. This is after he (a) chose to be licensed to practice law in the state of Illinois, where the state Supreme Court has stated unequivocally that it is the responsibility, though not the requirement, of every lawyer in the state to provide pro bono work and (b) chose to be employed by a company that both encourages pro bono work and supports its employees in their pursuit of such, in that they will treat pro bono work exactly like billable client work (i.e., \*\*Rand \*\*won’t get paid any less for doing it). You have a thread where you’re complaining about people being able to see your salary, after you chose to take a job where you knew that it was legally required for your salary to be publicly disclosed. > [@ZipperJJ](#): > > This reminds me of the [auto-avatar kerfuffle](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579165). You know what, that’s a really good comparison. Shockingly, I have exactly the same opinion of both sets of people. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/51 "2010-10-22T17:15:18Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You have a thread where you’re complaining about people being able to see your salary, after you chose to take a job where you knew that it was legally required for your salary to be publicly disclosed. What’s the point of this observation? The fact that a law is in place does not mean that the law is just. There are many reasons why someone might take a job with the government (some of which are quite altruistic) even though one is displeased with one or more elements of the employment. Tell us truly: Have you never, ever complained about some (perfectly legal) aspect of your job? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/52 "2010-10-22T17:42:13Z")
VA State employee here… just looked myself up. Then my boss (good for her, something to aspire to)… then one of our senior attorneys (WHAT THE FUCK, she doesn’t do shit)!!! Other than inspiring a week of office gossip, I can’t say I see the problem. But I do believe transparency in the government is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/53 "2010-10-22T18:40:30Z")
It’s a shitty database because it encourages people to make up their mind about others without all the facts. Judging without knowing the details is ALWAYS bad. WTF do you, Joe Public, need to know my salary for? It doesn’t help you in any way to make an informed decision about voting, taxes, or the government. You have a number, it may as well be listed in ancient sandskrit, that tells you something you think you should know about, but doesn’t actually mean anything unless you include all of the information This isn’t transparency in government. This is like publishing how fast in WPM secretaries can type and judging who’s a good secretary and who’s a bad one based on that. It’s an arbitrary number used to assume loads of information about a specific person that will in all likelihood be wrong. I don’t care if its supposed to be public information. It’s MY public information. Just like how me putting a camera on the sidewalk pointing into my neighbor’s window would be fucking annoying and harassing, people are being fucking annoying and harassing by demanding to know a public employee’s salary. Just because you pay taxes doesn’t mean you’re my boss. Joe Public can’t march into my office and demand I do stuff or withhold my salary because he doesn’t think I’m working hard. In the end, the government maintains services to a wide range of people. We are beholden only when voters come out and vote on policy, on our political leaders, and propositions. But my salary is my own That said, I personally don’t give a shit about how much everybody makes. I think it’s a stupid little hangup that people have where they are afraid that any information given to others makes themselves lesser somehow. Everyone’s salary should be published. And no one should care ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/54 "2010-10-22T18:45:04Z")
I’m having a hard time reconciling this: > [@monstro](#): > > We can’t surf the web, we have to ask for permission to work second jobs, and we don’t even get paid for lunch breaks. with this: > [@monstro](#): > > All day, my coworkers were putting the names of colleagues into the database. You could hear them say things like “John makes more than James? Wow!” Doesn’t sound quite as Dickensian as you made it out to be. I’m also a bit puzzled that your objection to this is that you AREN’T listed. Also, regarding this: > [@monstro](#): > > If I were someone making six figures (like my boss’s boss…which I found out today whatdoyouknow) and suddenly had my house broken into, I would immediately blame that stupid database. Interesting factoid: burglars can immediately tell which houses rich people live in, without having to use a database. They’re the big houses, with lots of nice stuff in them. I’ll avoid telling you about [Zillow.com](http://Zillow.com) or your county’s real estate website lest you suffer a stroke when you find out that YOUR NEIGHBORS CAN FIND OUT HOW MUCH YOU PAID FOR YOUR HOUSE! Down to the penny! Why do they need to know?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/55 "2010-10-22T19:13:44Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What’s the point of this observation? The nature of the complaint is essential. “Government employees should not be required to disclose their salaries.” Potentially valid, depending on how you argued it. “Even though government employees are required to disclose their salaries, and I chose to take a government job knowing this, and the public has a legal right to know what I make, this paper is run by terrible, terrible people because they dared to give people the information they’re legally entitled to.” Not valid. In fact, fucking moronic. See the difference? And to carry it over to the \*\*Rand Rover \*\*analogy: “Lawyers should not be expected to do pro bono.” Potentially valid. “Even though I willingly sought to be licensed to practice law in Illinois, where their Supreme Court specifies that I have a responsibility to perform pro bono, and then chose to work at a firm that encourages pro bono work, the senior partner who dared to remind me of the firm’s per-person pro bono goals is a jackass.” Not valid, and fucking moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/56 "2010-10-22T20:02:34Z")
Ah, SFG, never the one to back down from the chance to show your dumbassery to everyone. You are missing the point of my thread and this one. In my thread, I was complaining about the United Way nature of the senior partner’s email–the firm was using subtle guilt-trip coercion to get people to do stuff the firm wants them to do but isn’t actually required by the firm (or the state bar). I said that I wished they would just require it instead of going the subtle bullshit route. So, my thread is not susceptible to the recharacterization you posit above. Likewise, the OP in this thread knows that everyone has the legal right to find out her salary. But it’s difficult to do. The paper made it much easier. Now, you may still think the rant is stupid if you want to, but it’s not “invalid” or subject to the recharacterization you posit above. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/57 "2010-10-22T20:08:00Z")
Blah, blah, blah. Didn’t get enough abuse in the \*other \*thread to get yourself hot enough to come, so you’re back for more? I really ought to start charging you. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/58 "2010-10-22T20:30:36Z")
No, I just like watching you fail all over yourdumbasself. You suffer from a common SDMB malady–the inability to discuss a specific issue when the other person’s position on the specific issue issue makes it seem to you like they may disagree with you on a broader issue. Illustrative example of a common pattern: OP: “Bush killed iraqi civilians personally for fun and ate them!” Poster: “Cite?” OP: “Oh, we have a bush lover in here–get 'im!!” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/59 "2010-10-22T21:04:13Z")
Shouldn’t you off be watching “Ow, My Balls!” on YouTube on your Fisher-Price laptop? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834/60 "2010-10-22T23:43:39Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It’s a shitty database because it encourages people to make up their mind about others without all the facts. Judging without knowing the details is ALWAYS bad. WTF do you, Joe Public, need to know my salary for? It doesn’t help you in any way to make an informed decision about voting, taxes, or the government. You have a number, it may as well be listed in ancient sandskrit, that tells you something you think you should know about, but doesn’t actually mean anything unless you include all of the information > > This isn’t transparency in government. This is like publishing how fast in WPM secretaries can type and judging who’s a good secretary and who’s a bad one based on that. It’s an arbitrary number used to assume loads of information about a specific person that will in all likelihood be wrong. I don’t care if its supposed to be public information. It’s MY public information. Just like how me putting a camera on the sidewalk pointing into my neighbor’s window would be fucking annoying and harassing, people are being fucking annoying and harassing by demanding to know a public employee’s salary. > > Just because you pay taxes doesn’t mean you’re my boss. Joe Public can’t march into my office and demand I do stuff or withhold my salary because he doesn’t think I’m working hard. In the end, the government maintains services to a wide range of people. We are beholden only when voters come out and vote on policy, on our political leaders, and propositions. But my salary is my own > > That said, I personally don’t give a shit about how much everybody makes. I think it’s a stupid little hangup that people have where they are afraid that any information given to others makes themselves lesser somehow. Everyone’s salary should be published. And no one should care I agree with everything you’ve said except for the last paragraph. Sorry, but people do have hang-ups about their salary and it’s completely understandable. I am currently the lowest paid professional in my department, despite having an advanced degree and glowing performance evaluations. People have always assumed that I make more than I do because of that and my job duties. Now suddenly they realize I don’t even rate on the totem pole. My job is to coordinate assessors in regional offices (I’m in central headquarters). I have no authority over them–we all understand this–but my recommendations are supposed to mean something. But most of the people who I herd like cats make ten to twenty-thousand dollars more than I do. Unless they were really busybodied, none of them knew that before this week. If I were one of them, I’d laugh and say, “Why should I listen to this twerp? If she actually had clout over there [central office], she’d be making more money!” Another point: many of my engineer coworkers have to work with private-sector counterparts to get stuff done. A coworker of mine said that a few of his private-sector buds kept calling him apologetically, saying things like ,“Hey man, I didn’t know it was that bad over there!” He admitted to being embarrassed. Or, imagine being an inspector, who has the authority to shut down a facility for violations, and having the owner of the facility try to take you down a peg by calling out your pitiful salary in front of everyone. Or having to audit staff at a regional office and having them say the same thing to you. It is potentially embarrassing if you are in a position of authority. Money = power in most people’s eyes. I don’t care that I’m not in the database. I make enough for my standard of living and I feel lucky to even have a job. But morale in the office took a big blow this week. Maybe it’s one of those YMMV things, but it doesn’t seem that hard to understand why this would be. > [@](#): > > Erdosain > I’m having a hard time reconciling this: > Quote: > Originally Posted by monstro > We can’t surf the web, we have to ask for permission to work second jobs, and we don’t even get paid for lunch breaks. > > with this: > Quote: > Originally Posted by monstro > All day, my coworkers were putting the names of colleagues into the database. You could hear them say things like “John makes more than James? Wow!” > > Doesn’t sound quite as Dickensian as you made it out to be. I’m also a bit puzzled that your objection to this is that you AREN’T listed. Let me clarify. We have a sum total of 30 minutes to do non-work related stuff on the web. We actually get in trouble if we go over that. It doesn’t take that long to put in a string of names into a database and get the “dish”. So don’t worry. No one was surfing the web on “your” dime. Please see the above for why someone might feel weird because of their absence from the database. > [@](#): > > Also, regarding this: > Quote: > Originally Posted by monstro > If I were someone making six figures (like my boss’s boss…which I found out today whatdoyouknow) and suddenly had my house broken into, I would immediately blame that stupid database. > > Interesting factoid: burglars can immediately tell which houses rich people live in, without having to use a database. They’re the big houses, with lots of nice stuff in them. I’ll avoid telling you about [Zillow.com](http://Zillow.com) or your county’s real estate website lest you suffer a stroke when you find out that YOUR NEIGHBORS CAN FIND OUT HOW MUCH YOU PAID FOR YOUR HOUSE! Down to the penny! Why do they need to know?!?!? Another interesting factoid: people can make six figures and live pretty inconspiciously. If I were making, let’s say, $50,000, I probably wouldn’t move from my modest quadriplex, in a neighborhood with a median income of $38,000. That’s just how I roll. And with so many people have a hard-on against government employees, I wouldn’t put it pass some of them to harass government workers making good salaries. Because many people are hateful, stupid, and plain jealous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/richmond-times-dispatch-for-shame/557834.md?page=4)