# Rick Reilly: Penn State deserves the death penalty for Sandusky **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 15, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271 "2012-07-15T02:20:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/121 "2012-07-17T15:03:11Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Because it’s the NCAA’s job to punish violations that result in unfair conduct of football games, and it’s the police’s job to punish violations that are criminal acts. It’s that simple. Not quite so simple. Surely the NCAA, as a private entity, gets to figure out what their bailiwick is, right? [And the president of the NCAA seems to think that punishing this is their job](http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/53285/ncaa-president-mulling-psu-penalties): > [@Mark Emmert](#): > > “I’ve never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university and hope never to see it again. What the appropriate penalties are, if there are determinations of violations, we’ll have to decide. > … > This is completely different than an impermissible benefits scandal like happened at SMU, or anything else we’ve dealt with,” Emmert said, referring to the SMU football scandal that resulted in the so-called “death penalty” being imposed. "This is as systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem. There have been people that said this wasn’t a football scandal. Well it was more than a football scandal, much more than a football scandal. It was that but much more. And we’ll have to figure out exactly what the right penalties are. I don’t know that past precedent makes particularly good sense in this case, because it’s really an unprecedented problem. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/122 "2012-07-17T15:05:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In any case, I’m not saying that the NCAA should drop them specifically because of their putative overreliance on football as a raison d’etre. Nobody has suggested it’s the school’s raison d’etre. It’s not, and that is clear based on a mountain of evidence. The problem is your insistence that it’s just a game, and non-essential, is less than compelling. Besides, you are going off on a tangent in order to avoid the question I posed to you. If the same thing happens at another school in an academic dept., do you vote to shut it down? And don’t give me some nonsense about how every academic dept. is essential to their mission because, individually, they are not. If you never would shut them down, what kind of moral hazard are you supporting by making it clear that academic entities are too integral to fail? You rail about how football is too powerful, yet there are clear rules and precedents for the death penalty. No such thing exists for an engineering dept., which makes be think the disincentives you suggest are lacking in those areas, not sports. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Brickbacon** seems to be arguing that football’s central role in the institution’s identity means the NCAA shouldn’t remove football from them; No, I am saying trivializing football at a school like Penn State as a “game” is foolish. People’s livelihoods depend on this. They depend on football to pay their mortgages and feed their kids. That doesn’t mean you can never shut down the program, but you should do it for valid reasons, not in some misguided sense of vengeance. There is no reason why you should punish innocent people only in order to make a point about how they value sports too much. Doing so is not gonna make people more inclined to report abuse, nor will it prevent abusers from using institutions to facilitate their abuse. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > all I’m saying is that, rather than that being an argument against removing football, it’s an argument in favor of doing so. Which, again, is nonsensical in the current scenario. First, the NCAA is a voluntary organization. Do you really think those under their charge would agree to be subject to their rule if it’s deemed that schools that care about football too much can be punished? Second, the NCAA exists to govern and certify sports programs wrt to the product on the field. They don’t exist to hold schools to their mission statements, or to punish bad behavior that doesn’t result in a competitive imbalance. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/123 "2012-07-17T15:07:40Z")
> [@Aizle](#): > > That happens all of the time. > > Anyone remember ENRON? The actions of their leadership screwed hundreds of innocent employees out of their retirement as well as their jobs. > > Do we think that organization shouldn’t have been punished for what their leaders did? Not a particularly good analogy, because Enron fell apart and declared bankruptcy all on its own. It was a self-inflicted wound, and by the time they got around to prosecuting anyone, the damage had already been done. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/124 "2012-07-17T15:09:00Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The problem is your insistence that it’s just a game, and non-essential, is less than compelling. Besides, you are going off on a tangent in order to avoid the question I posed to you. If the same thing happens at another school in an academic dept., do you vote to shut it down? And don’t give me some nonsense about how every academic dept. is essential to their mission because, individually, they are not. I cannot believe I’m having to address this very basic point again. The word I used before is “diminish.” As in, every academic program you remove from a school diminishes its ability to conduct its mission. Removing a sports program, or a cafeteria program, or a groundskeeping program, or a vending machine program, or a specific club, or anything that’s not academic, doesn’t diminish its ability to conduct its mission (although you could make an argument for the cafeteria, I suppose). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/125 "2012-07-17T15:13:36Z")
> [@Aizle](#): > > That happens all of the time. > > Anyone remember ENRON? The actions of their leadership screwed hundreds of innocent employees out of their retirement as well as their jobs. > > Do we think that organization shouldn’t have been punished for what their leaders did? ENRON went bankrupt. That is no the same as an outside entity coming in to shut down an otherwise healthy entity in order to make a point. A better analogy would be if the government came in a shut down JP Morgan because that one of their trading groups lost billions of dollars. Again, the point is not that a person can never be punished for the actions of others within their organization, it’s that you should take collateral damage into account, and have a valid cause for your punitive actions. ---
**Author:** ![Aizle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Aizle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aizle)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/126 "2012-07-17T15:27:10Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not a particularly good analogy, because Enron fell apart and declared bankruptcy all on its own. It was a self-inflicted wound, and by the time they got around to prosecuting anyone, the damage had already been done. That’s what I get for posting the first thing that came to mind. My point was really just that innocents regularly pay the price of the incompetence or mistakes of those in power. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/127 "2012-07-17T15:34:27Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > If the same thing happens at another school in an academic dept., do you vote to shut it down? I’ll take a stab at it. If a massive cover-up reaching all the way to the president of the unversity took place to save the face of the academic department, then yes that department should be shut down temporarily. The problem is that, in the case of an academic department, I don’t know who the regulating authorities are. The athletic department participates in NCAA activities, so they have to abide by NCAA rulings. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/128 "2012-07-17T15:37:13Z")
nvm ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/129 "2012-07-17T15:37:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I cannot believe I’m having to address this very basic point again. The word I used before is “diminish.” And I say that is bullshit. You are avoiding the question. Even disregarding how integral football itself is to their mission, why doesn’t eliminating football “diminish” the university given that they will be less likely to fulfill their academic mission without it? That’s not even considering the fact that you are naive enough to believe their stated mission statement which flies in the face of their actual conduct. > [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I’ll take a stab at it. If a massive cover-up reaching all the way to the president of the unversity took place to save the face of the academic department, then yes that department should be shut down temporarily. The problem is that, in the case of an academic department, I don’t know who the regulating authorities are. The athletic department participates in NCAA activities, so they have to abide by NCAA rulings. At least you are consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/130 "2012-07-17T15:40:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Not quite so simple. Surely the NCAA, as a private entity, gets to figure out what their bailiwick is, right? [And the president of the NCAA seems to think that punishing this is their job](http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/53285/ncaa-president-mulling-psu-penalties): I agree with the NCAA on one thing. It’s an unprecedented, systemic problem. I wouldn’t mind an NCAA penalty that meaningfully addresses said problem–I don’t think the death penalty is that, because it’s a football department problem but it wasn’t really about football at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/131 "2012-07-17T15:45:19Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Because it’s the NCAA’s job to punish violations that result in unfair conduct of football games, and it’s the police’s job to punish violations that are criminal acts. It’s that simple. From the [NCAA Manual](http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D110.pdf): [quote] 2.1 THe PrInCIPLe oF InsTITuTIonAL ConTroL AnD resPonsIBILITy [li] [/li]2.1.1 responsibility for Control. [li] It is the responsibility of each member institution to control its intercollegiate athletics program in compliance with the rules and regulations of the Association. The institution’s [/li]president or chancellor is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the athletics program, including approval of the budget and audit of all expenditures. (Revised: 3/8/06) 2.1.2 scope of responsibility. [li] The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.[/li][/quote] And: > [@](#): > > 2.4 THe PrInCIPLe oF sPorTsMAnsHIP AnD eTHICAL ConDuCT [li] [/li]For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of > higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these > athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and > responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum > of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to: (Revised: 1/9/96) > (a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the educational mission and goals of the institution; and (Adopted: 1/9/96) > (b) Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in Constitution 2.4-(a). (Adopted: 1/9/96) ETA: for some reason there was some funky effect in the cut and paste of the NCAA rules. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/132 "2012-07-17T15:48:56Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Because it’s the NCAA’s job to punish violations that result in unfair conduct of football games, and it’s the police’s job to punish violations that are criminal acts. It’s that simple. Ninja’d, but a little more from the NCAA Division I Manual 3.2.4 Conditions and Obligations of Membership 3.2.4.12 Standards. Active members agree to establish and maintain high standards of personal honor, eligibility and fair play 11.1 Conduct of Athletics PersonneL 11.1.1 Honesty and sportsmanship. Individuals employed by or associated with a member institution to administer, conduct or coach intercollegiate athletics shall act with honesty and sportsmanship at all times so that intercollegiate athletics as a whole, their institutions and they, as individuals, represent the honor and dignity of fair play and the generally recognized high standards associated with wholesome competitive sports. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/133 "2012-07-17T15:57:35Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > And I say that is bullshit. You are avoiding the question. Even disregarding how integral football itself is to their mission, why doesn’t eliminating football “diminish” the university given that they will be less likely to fulfill their academic mission without it? Because they won’t be. > [@](#): > > That’s not even considering the fact that you are naive enough to believe their stated mission statement which flies in the face of their actual conduct. Again, I’m only willing to send them tax dollars if they fulfill their actual mission. If they’re lying about what they’re doing on the most fundamental level, then fuck them and remove their entire institution’s funding. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/134 "2012-07-17T16:07:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Because they won’t be. Of course they would. Do you realize how much money and attention is funneled to the school because of football? Getting rid of football would mean they have less money for labs, that they attract fewer students, and that have to spend more to entice students to go there. That directly affects the stated mission. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, I’m only willing to send them tax dollars if they fulfill their actual mission. If they’re lying about what they’re doing on the most fundamental level, then fuck them and remove their entire institution’s funding. No one cares what you are “willing” to send since you don’t send them anything. Taxes are not discretionary. More importantly, only a fool would believe their mission statement is an accurate, explicit, and exhaustive account of how they actually, or intent to operate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/135 "2012-07-17T16:08:12Z")
I’m a fool, I’m naive, I get it, you’re not clear on which forum this is in. Let’s take another break from this. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/136 "2012-07-17T16:11:04Z")
So, Rick Reilly is wrong again? There’s a shock. The NCAA has no cause for imposing punishments of any kind, because Penn State didn’t commit any infractions that fall under their authority. Criminal activity unrelated to football is a matter for prosecution by legal authorities. Jerry sandusky is going to prison for the rest of his life. It’s VERY likely that Spanier, Curley and Schultz will be prosecuted as well. If the State of Pennsylvania prosecutes those men and they do jail time, then justice will have been served, and there will be NOTHING left for the NCAA to do. I understand why many people find this unsatisfying. From a purely moral standpoint, paying football players under the table (As SMU did) is nowhere near as bad as turning a blind eye to a pedophile. SO, why can’t the NCAA impose similar, or even HARSHER penalties? To use an analogy, which is morally worse: 1. Falling behind on my rent. 2. Constantly playing music too loud in my apartment. 3. Writing racist articles for a neo-Nazi organization. Can we all agree that scenario #3 is by far the worst, from a moral standpoint? Good. Now, which of those things is NOT a valid reason for my landlord to evict me? The answer is… my landlord would have a right to evict me for not paying my rent on time. He would have a right to evict me for playing music too loud. But he would NOT have a right to evict me for being a neo-Nazi. In the same way, the NCAA has every right to punish schools for violating NCAA rules, They DON’T have the authority to punish a school for immoral or even criminal activities that don’t fall under their rules. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/137 "2012-07-17T16:16:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It’s VERY likely that Spanier, Curley and Schultz will be prosecuted as well. Curley and Schultz have already been charged with lying to a grand jury and failing to report suspected child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/138 "2012-07-17T16:18:59Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I agree with the NCAA on one thing. It’s an unprecedented, systemic problem. > > I wouldn’t mind an NCAA penalty that meaningfully addresses said problem–I don’t think the death penalty is that, because it’s a football department problem but it wasn’t really about football at all. I think your opinion exists because you are an alum of Penn State. I don’t seen anybody else opposing the NCAA death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/139 "2012-07-17T16:23:56Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The NCAA has no cause for imposing punishments of any kind, because Penn State didn’t commit any infractions that fall under their authority. > > Criminal activity unrelated to football is a matter for prosecution by legal authorities. Your two statements do not follow from each other. The NCAA doesn’t prosecute crimes, but it absolutely has the authority to take action against a school for reasons related to the prosecution of crimes by legal authorities. Indeed, the rules as quoted contemplate the NCAA taking action on grounds that have no direct connection to what goes on on the field. Just like your own boss can fire you if he finds out you have done someone he doesn’t like, regardless of whether it constitutes a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271/140 "2012-07-17T16:24:25Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So, Rick Reilly is wrong again? There’s a shock. > > The NCAA has no cause for imposing punishments of any kind, because Penn State didn’t commit any infractions that fall under their authority. > > Criminal activity unrelated to football is a matter for prosecution by legal authorities. Jerry sandusky is going to prison for the rest of his life. It’s VERY likely that Spanier, Curley and Schultz will be prosecuted as well. If the State of Pennsylvania prosecutes those men and they do jail time, then justice will have been served, and there will be NOTHING left for the NCAA to do. > > I understand why many people find this unsatisfying. From a purely moral standpoint, paying football players under the table (As SMU did) is nowhere near as bad as turning a blind eye to a pedophile. SO, why can’t the NCAA impose similar, or even HARSHER penalties? > > To use an analogy, which is morally worse: > > 1. Falling behind on my rent. > 2. Constantly playing music too loud in my apartment. > 3. Writing racist articles for a neo-Nazi organization. > > Can we all agree that scenario #3 is by far the worst, from a moral standpoint? Good. Now, which of those things is NOT a valid reason for my landlord to evict me? > > The answer is… my landlord would have a right to evict me for not paying my rent on time. He would have a right to evict me for playing music too loud. But he would NOT have a right to evict me for being a neo-Nazi. > > In the same way, the NCAA has every right to punish schools for violating NCAA rules, They DON’T have the authority to punish a school for immoral or even criminal activities that don’t fall under their rules. Wrong. See posts #131 and 132, which cite specific provisions of NCAA rules that seem to give them authority to punish Penn State for their program’s gross lack of honesty and integrity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-reilly-penn-state-deserves-the-death-penalty-for-sandusky/628271.md?page=8)