# Rick Warren. Rick fucking Warren. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647 "2008-12-17T22:23:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/221 "2008-12-23T13:35:22Z")
jayjay, you don’t have to go that far with analogies. The best one is still if he had chosen a racist preacher known for preaching that blacks are inhuman to “reach across the aisle” to racists (after having anti-miscegenation propositions on the ballot and passed by casually racist voters in several states). Blacks and other minorities would be terribly hurt and outraged, as would anyone sympathetic to civil rights and human decency. There wouldn’t be anywhere near the amount of “get over it” attitudes expressed. The only difference is, homosexual’s civil rights aren’t considered important and their hurt and outrage can be easily dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/222 "2008-12-23T13:38:44Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > jayjay, you don’t have to go that far with analogies. The best one is still if he had chosen a racist preacher known for preaching that blacks are inhuman to “reach across the aisle” to racists (after having anti-miscegenation propositions on the ballot and passed by casually racist voters in several states). Blacks and other minorities would be outraged, as well as anyone sympathetic to civil rights and human decency. There wouldn’t be anywhere near the amount of “get over it” attitudes expressed. > > The only difference is, homosexual’s civil rights aren’t considered important and their hurt and outrage can be easily dismissed. I know, but I was trying to find an analogy that would really hit home with **Liberal**. He’s talked about his Native American heritage many times. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/223 "2008-12-23T13:40:06Z")
Oh ok, I hadn’t realized that. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/224 "2008-12-23T14:12:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Liberal, let me float an analogy for you. Suppose he’d picked a pastor who was known for preaching that the US Army’s campaign of genocide against Native Americans in the 18th, 19th and early 20th Centuries was justified, that the NA dominance over the New World was a historical mistake fostered by Satan and the steamrolling of the NA tribes in the United States was a crusade led by God. That the only Native Americans who could be acceptable Christians were those who completely denied their traditions and heritage and became, for all intents and purposes, white people culturally. You certainly know what buttons to push. 😉 I do understand your anger. I really do. In fact, I’m arguing with a couple of dent-headed apologists in GD right now who are defending the murderous rampage of General Sherman during the War Between the States. It’s annoying as hell. And I believe that there will be ample opportunity for people like Mike Rogers to meet with Warren and, in the context of a frank, civil discussion, air their grievances with him. I admit that I’d be miffed at Obama for selecting an Indian hater to give his invocation, but in the end it is his. And I would take some comfort in the assurity that his selection is designed, at least in part, to begin an education process for those who defend the centuries of crimes against our inoffensive Indian nations. One of the things I’ve learned very late in life (thanks in part to people like you and others at the Dope) is that battles need to be carefully picked. Knowing when to let it go — and I mean really let it go — has contributed more than anything to the fact that for me, there will be no more meltdowns. And so my heart goes out to you and yours. I don’t want to see you melting down either. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/225 "2008-12-23T14:21:00Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You certainly know what buttons to push. 😉 I pay attention. 😃 > [@](#): > > I do understand your anger. I really do. In fact, I’m arguing with a couple of dent-headed apologists in GD right now who are defending the murderous rampage of General Sherman during the War Between the States. It’s annoying as hell. And I believe that there will be ample opportunity for people like Mike Rogers to meet with Warren and, in the context of a frank, civil discussion, air their grievances with him. > > I admit that I’d be miffed at Obama for selecting an Indian hater to give his invocation, but in the end it is his. And I would take some comfort in the assurity that his selection is designed, at least in part, to begin an education process for those who defend the centuries of crimes against our inoffensive Indian nations. I hope that the education process is what will happen due to this choice. I don’t hold out _much_ hope for that, knowing that Warren’s (and all the evangelical megapastors’) income and continued influence more or less depend on him delivering the red meat on the gheys to his congregation. There’s a quote about nothing being harder to convince than someone whose income depends on remaining unconvinced but I don’t remember who said it or how it actually goes. > [@](#): > > One of the things I’ve learned very late in life (thanks in part to people like you and others at the Dope) is that battles need to be carefully picked. Knowing when to let it go — and I mean really let it go — has contributed more than anything to the fact that for me, there will be no more meltdowns. And so my heart goes out to you and yours. I don’t want to see you melting down either. You’re a good guy, **Lib**. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/226 "2008-12-23T22:05:33Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Come on, choosing a spiritual leader who doesn’t preach hate **for the Inauguration Invocation** is light years from “ostracizing” religious bigots. Very few people are suggesting ostracizing the fundies (well, I would, since I think they should be shunned out of polite society, but I rightly wouldn’t expect anyone else to agree with me). Have some meetings. Go eat breakfast with them. Continue networking the way he did during the campaign. This is all about Inauguration Day only. > > All he’s done by the choice is ostracize a large group of people who were already in pain from being smacked down throughout the centuries and had their happiness on Election Day dashed with the cold burning water of hate and exclusion. No, that’s not “all” he’s done. In fact, he hasn’t ostracized anyone at all – that’s the point. Do you even know what that word means? > [@](#): > > **Ostracize** - verb > > 1. to exclude, by general consent, from society, friendship, conversation, privileges, etc. What large group of people has Barack Obama excluded from society, friendship, conversation or privileges? He may have unintentionally angered them, but he has not ostracized them. > [@Equipoise](#): > > Now millions can’t fully enjoy Inauguration Day either knowing what a horrific bigot Warren is. If they choose to allow their outrage to overshadow their enthusiasm for this historic event, that’s their own fault, not Barack Obama’s. > [@Equipoise](#): > > I know they don’t matter to most people and should just “get over it” but if I, a non gay, am having real problems coming to terms with this, I certainly can’t blame those who are affected every day by predjudice and hate and are hurting much much more than my comfy married-for-27years ass. I sure hope you’re not directing the accusation of not caring about gay people at me. I recognize that you are having trouble coming to terms with this, and I DO understand why it upsets you. But that’s why I linked to Obama’s _Call to Renewal_ speech. I hoped you would read it – in its entirety. It is a beautiful illustration of the heart and mind of Barack Obama as regards how he thinks this nation should approach those with differing religious viewpoints – even and especially those views we find outrageous or contemptible. I had hoped that, had you had a better understanding of who Barack Obama is at his core, and how he makes important decisions like this, that it might – might – start to calm some of your anger. Right now you appear to be angry because you think this choice shows a lack of care or concern about a specific group of Americans; that he acted with intentional or knowing disregard. If I felt that that was what motivated his decision, I’d be pissed off, too. But I believe differently. I believe he admires Rick Warren for what he perceives as the good works he’s doing in the world. I believe he recognizes the influence a man like Rick Warren has on a huge contingency in the United States. I believe he’s reaching out to not only Rick Warren, but to those people as well, in the hopes that by joining together we can start having the conversations we desperately need to have in order to effect the change we strive for. As I said previously, I don’t _like_ that he chose Rick Warren, either. But I’m _trusting_ him to know what he’s doing, and why it might be the right thing to do at this time in history. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/227 "2008-12-23T23:02:50Z")
Whatever. See post #219. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/228 "2008-12-23T23:20:57Z")
It just came to me that Obama missed an opportunity. He should have asked Gene Robinson and Rick Warren to share in delivering the invocation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/229 "2008-12-23T23:26:02Z")
You’re going to win. Period, full stop. The momentum of social change is behind you, and you’re going to win. Which is to say, we are going to win. Gays, latinos, women, men married damn near forever, Americans without any particular stripe - we are going to win. If the “Rev.” Warren spills his guts onstage and admits to being utterly and totally gay, you’re going to win. If he launches into a sulfurous Jeremiad condemning homos, lesbos, and masturbating like motherfuckers, you’re going to win. If he daubs himself with shit and sets his hair on fire, you’re going to win. A jerk performing a minor evocative function at a formal event ain’t shit. Next to Prop 8, its nothing, and Prop 8 is only a setback, not a defeat. Its a rear-guard action by a doomed army. It ought to piss you off, and then you ought to shrug it off. You’re gonna have to wait and see what happens anyway, so you might as well wait and see what happens. Regroup, organize, and continue the advance, you are going to win. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/230 "2008-12-24T01:19:10Z")
I can’t remember the exact event, but it was some big national/federal things. Three clergy were to give prayers, a rabbi, a Protestant, and a Catholic priest. The latter guy was Fr. Theodore Hesburgh, president emeritus of Notre Dame. He was third in the lineup. The rabbi and the Protestant(Baptist I think) gave what I think of as “preaching prayers”, long-winded, more like sermons or political statements. Hesburgh came to the mike, looked around sternly and pulled his glasses down and said “At a time like this I can think of no better thing to say than”…and he launched into the Lord’s Prayer. Then he sat down, after less than a minute in the “limelight” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/231 "2008-12-24T01:21:58Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > What large group of people has Barack Obama excluded from society, friendship, conversation or privileges? Homosexuals. At least, he’s making it clear that he intends to continue to do so, by among other things inviting an anti-homosexual bigot. > [@Shayna](#): > > ``` > Right now you appear to be angry because you think this choice shows a lack of care or concern about a specific group of Americans; that he acted with intentional or knowing disregard. If I felt that that was what motivated his decision, I'd be pissed off, too. > > ``` Then you should be pissed off, because it does. What you and others are wilfully ignoring is that there is no middle ground here; no place to compromise. If you are pro-Warren, then you are anti-homosexual. Warren is their ENEMY, and a bigot; not just someone who has a minor disagreement. > [@Shayna](#): > > But I believe differently. I believe he admires Rick Warren for what he perceives as the good works he’s doing in the world. And I’m told that the Nazi regime had a very enlightened forestry policy. That doesn’t make up for everything else. > [@Shayna](#): > > I believe he recognizes the influence a man like Rick Warren has on a huge contingency in the United States. And so what ? They have a bigoted viewpoint that should be dismissed out of hand, not given a Presidential seal of approval. > [@Shayna](#): > > I believe he’s reaching out to not only Rick Warren, but to those people as well, in the hopes that by joining together we can start having the conversations we desperately need to have in order to effect the change we strive for. They are vermin, and should be opposed at every turn, not “reached out to”. “Compromise” with such people can only be achieved by enforcing the bigotry they so desire. > [@Liberal](#): > > I realize that, as a Democrat, you’re not used to having an actual leader actually lead. Sucking up to the bigoted right isn’t “leadership”. It is, however, exactly the kind of spinelessness I expect from the Democrats. > [@elucidator](#): > > You’re going to win. Period, full stop. The momentum of social change is behind you, and you’re going to win. Which is to say, we are going to win. Gays, latinos, women, men married damn near forever, Americans without any particular stripe - we are going to win. You are far more trusting of people than I am. What I think is that the rights of homosexuals have reached a high water mark, and the pendulum is swinging the other way. I consider quite possible that in twenty years or so we’ll see being homosexual made illegal again. And yes, I know the demographic arguments; but what usually really happens in the real world is those supposedly liberal youngsters become conservative bigots in their adulthood. Just as happened with the oh-so-tolerant youth of the 60’s. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/232 "2008-12-24T01:37:50Z")
Here is a [link](http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/carroll/) to a column today in the SF Chronicle, by a columnist who I usually find thoughtful. He generally displays what might be called “liberal” values, but I don’t think that colors this particular column. Some representative quotes: [QUOTE=Jon Carroll] Islam, a reasonably well-known religion, has defined marriage as a contract between one man and as many as four women. I note that (Warren) skillfully slides over that well-known custom; would he, one wonders, support a law allowing for polygamous marriages, since it is sanctioned by a popular monotheistic religion? No, he’s just cherry-picking. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Jon Carroll] It was an easy trap to avoid, is what I’m saying. It was an easy statement to refrain from making. But Obama has chosen to start his administration with a bigot addressing God on behalf of the American people. Not the change I was hoping for. [/QUOTE] I just want to re-iterate something I said way upthread - this isn’t all or nothing for me. I’m not expecting that gay rights are really a huge part of Obama’s agenda. I will be happy if he can make noticeable inroads with our economic problems, with our two lovely wars overseas, and with civil rights in general. But I would also be happy if he realizes what a slap in the face this choice does seem to be to a large portion of the gay community (if what I have read and heard are anything to go by). Roddy ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/233 "2008-12-24T03:06:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > …Just as happened with the oh-so-tolerant youth of the 60’s. Who fed you that steaming load? Says who? One of those car commericals: “Hey, you were a pretty wild guy back in college, but now you’re more mature and responsible, which is why you should buy cars that will kill yer planet.” What’s that word, you know the one…oh, yeah! Sight? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/234 "2008-12-24T03:08:56Z")
Hm. Actually, as a result of this, Rick Warren’s church appears to have become more welcoming of homosexuals, as certain parts of their web page have been changed. Melissa Etheridge seems to have had a long talk with the man as well. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/235 "2008-12-24T03:53:22Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Melissa Etheridge seems to have had a long talk with the man as well. Which says to me that Etheridge is incredibly naive. When someone’s been a rat for 40 years, it takes more than a tail toupee to convince me that he’s turned into a fuzzy cuddly squirrel. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/236 "2008-12-24T11:10:52Z")
Well, we can wait and see. I’m counting this as a minor win, though, because he’s _not_ calling her a harlot and a jezebel. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/237 "2008-12-24T11:51:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Sucking up to the bigoted right isn’t “leadership”. It is, however, exactly the kind of spinelessness I expect from the Democrats. You’re a fucking cockroach, and wouldn’t know leadership if it bit you in the exoskeleton. This ain’t Great Debates where only you get to hurl insults at people without consequence. So take you words to me and shove them up your ass because I piss on them, disrespect them, and hold them to be worthless. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/238 "2008-12-24T12:48:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You’re a fucking cockroach, and wouldn’t know leadership if it bit you in the exoskeleton. This ain’t Great Debates where only you get to hurl insults at people without consequence. So take you words to me and shove them up your ass because I piss on them, disrespect them, and hold them to be worthless. Must you beat around the bush like that? If you have something to say just spit it out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/239 "2008-12-24T13:26:25Z")
Its the \*\*Liberal \*\* v2.0 rollout, there will be a patch released to fix that pretty soon. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/240 "2008-12-24T13:43:23Z")
Good thing this a mostly pro-Obama, liberal message-board. I can’t imagine the bile against him in a right-leaning one. Do many of you really think that Obama’s “gay agenda” (whatever that is) will be defined by Warren’s inagural prayer? The man hasn’t slept one night at the White house and he’s being killed by his own guys. Or maybe he didn’t get the memo where “tolerance” and “inclusive” mean " you just have to behave exactly as we want, anything else is bigotry". [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647.md?page=13)