# Rick Warren. Rick fucking Warren. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647 "2008-12-17T22:23:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/41 "2008-12-18T18:17:36Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Look, I’m no 'phobe but come on, gays, get over yourselves. Hey, I think we have our appointment for United Nations ambassador here! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/42 "2008-12-18T18:31:56Z")
I think its shrewd, and a bit risky. The risk is that he’s trusting Warren to give an inoffensive homily, and I think that’s a pretty good bet. And the statement is one of inclusion, a point that Obama has made many, many times: he wants to emphasize that disagreement is acceptable, which is far, far different from the Bushivik credo of firmly excluding dissent. If our situation were not so ghastly, it wouldn’t be necessary. But Obama has to forge a very broad coalition, and its going to include people I don’t much like. I don’t much like Mr Warren, but he’s a hell of a lot better than most of his ilk. I voted for Obama in large part because I believe him to be one of the five or six people who are actually smarter than me. (I resent him for precisely the same reason…) Further, I trust his essential positions, he is a centrist progressive, and after eight years of Bushivik hell, I am more than happy. This is a gesture, nothing more. I am firmly convinced that the cause of equal rights for gays is on the right road, and will succeed. I’d like it to succeed tomorrow morning, and I’d also like a pony. But it is happening. And I hasten to remind that yes, indeed, gay rights is one of the fish that need frying. But we got more fish than we have frying pan. If Obama only had the Bushean Stables to clean, his task would be Herculean enough. But it isn’t, not even close. I see him as trying to coalesce a rough sort of centrist unity, in face of a daunting crisis. Which means he is going to do and say things I will find disagreeable, being as I am on the conservative wing of the extreme left. I think he’s wrong on this one, but, like I said, he’s smarter then me, so maybe he’s right. And one last point: three days after the inaugaration, nobody is going to remember any of it, the fur will be flying thick and fast. I would recommend that Obama precede Warren’s homily with a two hour reading from Maya Angelou: the crowd will be so numbed out, nobody will hear a word he says. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/43 "2008-12-18T18:34:02Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So what, the Supreme Court is supposed to be the final word in these matters all of the time? That isn’t how our system is set up, and you know it. California Supreme Court. Not being conversant with their state constitution, I have no idea how their system works. And in the federal system, yes, the Supreme Court is the final arbiter in these matters. See Marbury v. Madison. Still, do you support the idea of the majority being able to remove rights from the minority? Let’s pass a Constitutional amendment that alters the 14th and 15th amendments to deprive Mormons of the right to vote. Maybe we could make Mexicans wear blue hats? Could we reimpose slavery on the 7th-Day Adventists? You’re right; persecuting minorities is fun and so good for the self-esteem! ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/44 "2008-12-18T18:38:10Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Look, I’m no 'phobe Why is it that when people start with something like this, they always go on to say something that makes it suspect? > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > come on, gays, get over yourselves. Fuck you. Your civil rights aren’t up for discussion or votes. Who the fuck are you to tell gay people to get over themselves. Were you around in the 60’s and did you tell black people to get over themselves when they wanted _their_ civil rights and people were actively working to deny them? > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Look, I’m no 'phobe but come on, gays, get over yourselves. Obama’s a Christian and a politician. Warren may not agree with the gay lifestyle but according to one of the Obamaniacs, “Obama and Warren agree on several issues, including advocating on behalf of the poor, the disadvantaged and people who suffer from HIV/AIDS.” > > Getting all outraged over this is every bit as ridiculous as right wingers getting outraged over the audacity of supporting gay marriage. Gays and Christians 1) will never go away and 2) will never agree on the marriage issue. Deal with it. And if you’re too one dimensional to get past someones opposition to ONE of your ideals, especially when he’s a champion of other values that you share, then you’re just as responsible for the division in this nation as They are. The poor and disadvantaged have more rights than gays, and Warren is only concerned about people with HIV/AIDS in Africa, where it affects heterosexuals far more than homosexuals. > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Obama’s going to take heat because he’s sensible. It’s easy to rip a country in half the way Bush did, but it’s a lot harder to stitch it back together. And that’s what Obama’s got to do before anything else can ever change. He’s got to re-teach the US “tolerance.” And that means not hating conservatives as well as not beating up gays. When there were thousands of other choices of religious leaders who wouldn’t have been a slap in the face of anyone who values human rights, the choice of Warren is unforgivable. How is giving a noted homophobe (who’s also anti-women, anti-choice and anti-science) a national platform going to teach the US tolerance? It’s legitimizing intolerance. > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Wake the fuck up, you sound just as hateful as Phelps. You’re disgusting.You’re not going to ruin my love of The Princess Bride, but every time I see your user name I’m going to wrinkle my nose as if I’m smelling a wafting stink. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/45 "2008-12-18T18:43:12Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > California Supreme Court. Not being conversant with their state constitution, I have no idea how their system works. Well then, perhaps you ought to bush up on that and get back to us. But I’ll give you a hint - changing the state constitution will considerably constrain what the court can do - and that was the point of Proposition 8. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/46 "2008-12-18T18:48:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And one last point: three days after the inaugaration, nobody is going to remember any of it, Oh, some of us will never forget. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/47 "2008-12-18T18:49:05Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Still, do you support the idea of the majority being able to remove rights from the minority? Wait, don’t you? I mean, I don’t support an amendment depriving Mormons of their right to vote, or making Mexicans wear blue hats, or enslaving Adventists, but if the Constitution gives a group of people certain rights, it can be amended so as to take them away. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/48 "2008-12-18T18:53:38Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Well then, perhaps you ought to bush up on that and get back to us. But I’ll give you a hint - changing the state constitution will considerably constrain what the court can do - and that was the point of Proposition 8. No, the point of Proposition 8 was to do an end-run around the court’s ruling so that a coterie of religious pressure groups could hoodwink voters into writing religious prejudice against gay people into the California state consitution. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/49 "2008-12-18T18:54:29Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Who the fuck are you to tell gay people to get over themselves. I’m gay. How about if I tell you to get over yourself? The guy’s giving a prayer at the inauguration, and you’re acting like Obama’s just apointed Heinrich Himmler as Sec. of State. It’s an empty gesture, people. It’s not going to affect policy, it’s not going to change laws, it’s a bone thrown to the right-wing god botherers so they’re less likely to interfere with him when he tries to do something that actually matters. Obama’s not bending to these people, he’s _manipulating_ them, and I wish him the best of luck in his efforts. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/50 "2008-12-18T18:58:51Z")
Perhaps Obama could’ve suggested Dr. Joel Hunter – conservative, evangelical but less strident and polarizing. > **[The New Evangelicals](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/06/30/the-new-evangelicals)** > > This election, a growing movement presents a challenge to the religious right. He could have achieved the same reach-across-the-aisle stance (don’t go there!) without such an avowed, non-inclusive figure. I’ve watched Obama make some decisions that I don’t agree with such he’s been elected but have given him the benefit of the doubt. This choice though makes me very uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/51 "2008-12-18T19:00:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Wait, don’t you? I mean, I don’t support an amendment depriving Mormons of their right to vote, or making Mexicans wear blue hats, or enslaving Adventists, but if the Constitution gives a group of people certain rights, it can be amended so as to take them away. The Founding Fathers designed the Consitution and the federal system to prevent that from happening. From [Federalist Paper #51](http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm), authored by Jmaes Madison: _In the extended republic of the United States, and among the great variety of interests, parties, and sects which it embraces, a coalition of a majority of the whole society could seldom take place on any other principles than those of justice and the general good; whilst there being thus less danger to a minor from the will of a major party, there must be less pretext, also, to provide for the security of the former, by introducing into the government a will not dependent on the latter, or, in other words, a will independent of the society itself. It is no less certain than it is important, notwithstanding the contrary opinions which have been entertained, that the larger the society, provided it lie within a practical sphere, the more duly capable it will be of self-government. And happily for the republican cause, the practicable sphere may be carried to a very great extent, by a judicious modification and mixture of the federal principle._ ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/52 "2008-12-18T19:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Rick fucking Warren Isn’t Rick fucking Warren the very thing he’s against? ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/53 "2008-12-18T19:10:44Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > “When repairing a torn cloth, the first stitch always bears the most tension.” > -Me > > Look, I’m no 'phobe but come on, gays, get over yourselves. Obama’s a Christian and a politician. Warren may not agree with the gay lifestyle but according to one of the Obamaniacs, “Obama and Warren agree on several issues, including advocating on behalf of the poor, the disadvantaged and people who suffer from HIV/AIDS.” > > Getting all outraged over this is every bit as ridiculous as right wingers getting outraged over the audacity of supporting gay marriage. Gays and Christians 1) will never go away and 2) will never agree on the marriage issue. Deal with it. And if you’re too one dimensional to get past someones opposition to ONE of your ideals, especially when he’s a champion of other values that you share, then you’re just as responsible for the division in this nation as They are. > > Obama’s going to take heat because he’s sensible. It’s easy to rip a country in half the way Bush did, but it’s a lot harder to stitch it back together. And that’s what Obama’s got to do before anything else can ever change. He’s got to re-teach the US “tolerance.” And that means not hating conservatives as well as not beating up gays. Wake the fuck up, you sound just as hateful as Phelps. You know what? I’ll “get over it” and “deal with it” when I don’t have to wake up every morning wondering if I’m still married to my spouse (just what are they going to do? Send me a letter? Put an announcement in the paper? Do I get my $150 back?). I’ll “get over it” and “deal with it” when I can live in any state in this country, just like you can, and feel confident that if someone punches me in the face for holding my partner’s hand, they will be arrested and convicted. When I can be sure I’ll still have a job even if someone finds out I love and want to spend my life with someone of the same gender. When that stuff happens, you can rest assured I will “get over it”. Until then, you need to shut the fuck up. I’m not even going there with the Phelps thing. What’s wrong with you \*\* Inigo\*\*? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/54 "2008-12-18T19:12:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > The Founding Fathers designed the Consitution and the federal system to prevent that from happening. Then they probably shouldn’t have made it possible to amend the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/55 "2008-12-18T19:19:17Z")
> [@jellyblue](#): > > You know what? I’ll “get over it” and “deal with it” when I don’t have to wake up every morning wondering if I’m still married to my spouse (just what are they going to do? Send me a letter? Put an announcement in the paper? Do I get my $150 back?). I’ll “get over it” and “deal with it” when I can live in any state in this country, just like you can, and feel confident that if someone punches me in the face for holding my partner’s hand, they will be arrested and convicted. When I can be sure I’ll still have a job even if someone finds out I love and want to spend my life with someone of the same gender. When that stuff happens, you can rest assured I will “get over it”. Until then, you need to shut the fuck up. > > I’m not even going there with the Phelps thing. What’s wrong with you \*\* Inigo\*\*? This is all valid, but none of it will be affected one way or the other by who gives the invocation at Obama’s inauguration. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/56 "2008-12-18T19:22:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Then they probably shouldn’t have made it possible to amend the Constitution. They made it difficult. Unlike California, which requires a mere numerical superiority to pass an amendment, the drafters of the Constitution required that amendments be ratified by the legislatures of 3/4 of the states. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/57 "2008-12-18T19:36:23Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > They made it difficult. Unlike California, which requires a mere numerical superiority to pass an amendment, the drafters of the Constitution required that amendments be ratified by the legislatures of 3/4 of the states. I’m aware. They didn’t, however, make it impossible, though. And if the US Supreme Court found there was a federal right to gay marriage, it would have been a lot harder for that to have been removed. However, they didn’t, so this is just about rights granted under California law, and in their infinite wisdom, California has decided it can take away its citizens’ rights by a simple majority. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/58 "2008-12-18T19:39:48Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Look, I’m no 'phobe but come on, gays, get over yourselves. Says the man who’s allowed to legally marry his Doper girlfriend. I know there was at least one gay Doper who congratulated you in that thread, **Inigo**. I don’t have a list of responses to that thread but I’m sure there were more than just me. Warren was a big factor in making sure that California queer folk don’t have that option. At all. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/59 "2008-12-18T19:40:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > California has decided it can take away its citizens’ rights by a simple majority. Doesn’t make it right. Just makes it legal. California sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647/60 "2008-12-18T19:46:34Z")
> [@jellyblue](#): > > I’m not even going there with the Phelps thing. What’s wrong with you \*\* Inigo\*\*? My point was that hyper-focusing on an agenda item that is important to you, to the exclusion of everything else; that denouncing someone in whole because they disagree with you in part; is not reasonable. I plucked Phelps because he is unyielding and unrelenting in his pursuit of persecution. And while I’m all for leaving marriage up to the parties involved and prying it loose from the clutches of the state, it seems equally mad to me to despise warren simply because the good he does isn’t the good you would do. It seems equally mad to me to not recognize the impasse that exists between one group who believes gay marriage would be beneficial to society and the other side who believes in their hearts, the opposite to be true. Both sides want the other to compromise their morals. Why not accept the fact that the world would be a pretty dull and stagnant place if everyone had exactly the same values—to admit that would be to admit that there is such a thing as ‘moral truth’ and there simply is no such thing. And yeah, Obama threw the right wing a frickin’ bone. He had to if he expects to get anything done. Like, for instance, earning credibility with The Right (he pretty much owns The Left) so he can go on to encourage us to break down the stereotypes and fears we all have about each other. Gay marriage has come dangerously close to being federally outlawed because a LOT of people think it should be so. And they will continue to think it should be so until tolerance becomes a way of life in the US. And it won’t become a way of life if our leadership doesn’t start with gestures like this one which effectively say, “Everyone knows we don’t agree on everything, but I’m willing to show you honor nonetheless.” Don’t you get that hate starts with fear? And that by destroying fear, you undermine hate? The US has come a long way with civil rights, we’re not where we should be but we’re looking forward now and not back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rick-warren-rick-fucking-warren/477647.md?page=4)