# Riding between stopped cars at a light on a motorcycle - legal? (paging JohnnyLA...) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 15, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034 "2005-08-15T01:51:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/21 "2005-08-15T07:51:13Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It just sounds to me so much like a very convenient rationalization–cars are stuck in traffic, motorcycles aren’t. Cars can’t drive between other cars, motorcycles can. Well, yeah, isn’t that the point? When traffic is really bad and bicycles are moving faster than the cars, do you think they should be required to hang back out of some weird sense of fairness? If I had a helicopter, would you demand that I not take advantage of the fact that it can go over the traffic? If you’re sitting at the light and I want to make a right turn, and there’s enough space for me to get my (very small) car through, should I feel bad that a much larger car might not have that luxury? ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/22 "2005-08-15T08:06:36Z")
It may be legal for motorcycles to ride between cars, but I don’t think it’s a good idea. Bikes can hide in blind spots really easily, and someone trying to change lanes in heavy traffic may not spot a biker because he’s busy watching the other 8 cars all around him. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/23 "2005-08-15T13:39:14Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > It may be legal for motorcycles to ride between cars, but I don’t think it’s a good idea. Bikes can hide in blind spots really easily, and someone trying to change lanes in heavy traffic may not spot a biker because he’s busy watching the other 8 cars all around him. Trust me, there’s not a motorcyclist alive who’s relying on car drivers to see _him_. ---
**Author:** ![Meaty\_Beaty\_Big\_and\_Bouncy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Meaty\_Beaty\_Big\_and\_Bouncy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meaty_Beaty_Big_and_Bouncy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/24 "2005-08-15T14:57:39Z")
Thanks for the link, **picunurse**. **DarrenS** , you must have balls that clank. > [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > And yes, there are jerks who will try to squeeze a motorcyclist. One guy over a decade ago deliberately moved over to keep me from passing. When there was finally an opening I got by him. He honked his horn and flipped me off. Too bad for him he forgot about my rear-view mirror when he gave me the bird. The thwack was loud, and it had to have hurt! > > The thing is that a motorcycle riding between traffic is going to be next to your car for a second or less. If you try to keep him from passing you’ll just raise your blood pressure and he’s going to pass you anyway. And once you get in front of him, toss out a pocket full of marbles. Just kidding ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/25 "2005-08-15T15:12:02Z")
I’m not a motorcycle rider myself, but I tend to be very, very respectful of their space. They’re often difficult to see, and they’re very fragile compared to everything else on the road. Lots of drivers are jerks and tend to not care about the motorcycles. That said, respect for space is a mutual consideration. If you’re going to try to squeeze between my Expedition and the H2 to my left, then you’re going to piss me off. No, not out of any undue sense of property rights, but out of concern for not killing you. Yeah, it’s supposedly your responsibility to know what you’re doing and to ensure that you can come out of that situation all right. But what _really_ happens is that you cause my adrenelin levels to increase, because now my alarms are raised, and aside from having to worry about the damn H2 that won’t pass, the jerk on the cell phone in front of me, trying to find my exit because I’m not familiar with I-5, I’ve got the increased responsibility of making sure that you don’t end up under one or both of my tires on that side of the truck. I guess that if I were a dick to motorcycle drivers, it wouldn’t bother me so much. As for cutting to the front of lines, well, on my daily routes I tend to get to know the traffic light patterns. I’m very, very good at getting to the light first, and knowing at exactly what speed I need to got to make the next light. While I can save 15 minutes on my commute, the same savings isn’t the point. The freedom to continue moving without being stopped is the point. But when you get in front of me with your crappy little motorcycle (no, _most_ motorcycles on the road aren’t fast Harleys or high-performing Japanese rice) I have to avoid hitting you again. And then I miss the next light. So, yeah, you are taking cuts in front of me and causing me to lose out on something. It’s a pretty selfish attitude, I know, but I earned my pole position via practice and experience. Well, at least I’m dry when it rains :). When I someday have my cruising bike (I’m partial to Goldwings), I’ll try to behave like other motor vehicles, and I’ll pray to God that people respect me on my bike like I try to respect them on theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/26 "2005-08-15T15:30:59Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m not a motorcycle rider myself… Yeah, it’s supposedly your responsibility to know what you’re doing and to ensure that you can come out of that situation all right. Aside from ‘squids’ who are not ‘safe and prudent’, most motorcyclists _do_ know what they’re doing. We’re very good at judging when there’s enough room and when there isn’t. I have over 100,000 miles on motorcycles in L.A. traffic, so I speak from experience. Rather than allowing your alarms to be raised, just shift over a little bit inside of your lane. You’ll likely get a wave of thanks when the motorcyclist passes. If you don’t move over, at least maintain your position. If the rider has judged there’s enough room, he’s in a better position to see it than the car driver. > [@Balthisar](#): > > But when you get in front of me with your crappy little motorcycle (no, _most_ motorcycles on the road aren’t fast Harleys or high-performing Japanese rice)… Harleys are not know for being fast. My XJ600 isn’t a ‘rice rocket’ (which is what I assume you meant by ‘rice’ – i.e., it’s not a ‘crotch rocket’). It’s a ‘standard’. Although there are a lot of old motorcycles on the roads, I see very few that are ‘crappy’. Most are quite capable of out-accellerating a car. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/27 "2005-08-15T15:35:24Z")
Oh – I was rather nervous about lane-splitting on my YZF-R1 when I bought it. Upon leaving the dealership I ‘took the long way home’. From Marina del Rey I went up through Malibu Canyon and over to the 101 to the 405 to get back to the Culver City area. Traffic was awful. I ended up going between lanes at the Sepulveda Pass. To my surprise, it was easier to do on my physically-larger, 1000cc sportbike than on my 600cc standard. The XJ600’s mirrors are at about the same level as the mirrors on many cars and trucks. The YZF-R1’s mirrors are lower and pass more easily. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/28 "2005-08-15T16:00:41Z")
I was going to say… > [@ntucker](#): > > Well, yeah, isn’t that the point? When traffic is really bad and bicycles are moving faster than the cars, do you think they should be required to hang back out of some weird sense of fairness? Waiting your turn is weird? > [@](#): > > If I had a helicopter, would you demand that I not take advantage of the fact that it can go over the traffic? Within the constraints that you can’t just take off, fly, and land anywhere you want to… but then you went and got all reasonable and gave me a great example of how it works with cars… > [@](#): > > If you’re sitting at the light and I want to make a right turn, and there’s enough space for me to get my (very small) car through, should I feel bad that a much larger car might not have that luxury? Okay. Color me convinced. I retract my previous issues with “waiting your turn.” If it’s legal, and there’s room for you to do it, it’s your turn. Just don’t scratch my car, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/29 "2005-08-15T16:04:42Z")
Not only is lane splitting legal in Japan, there are places where they have a separate stop line at traffic lights ahead of the one intended for cars and trucks. It’s quite common to see motorcyles and scooters threading through traffic at a stop light to wait at the more forward line. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/30 "2005-08-16T10:17:19Z")
I was going to respond… > [@Ethilrist](#): > > Waiting your turn is weird? Yeah. If you are on a bicycle, and you can pass traffic because it’s stopped or going very slowly, don’t you do it? I’d consider it weird to stop and “wait your turn” when it doesn’t do anyone any good. But then you went and got all reasonable and said: > [@](#): > > Okay. Color me convinced. I retract my previous issues with “waiting your turn.” If it’s legal, and there’s room for you to do it, it’s your turn. Wow, I changed someone’s mind! Can we get Threadspotting in here? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/31 "2005-08-16T14:17:22Z")
I know only a handful of motorcyclists, but of those few, I know three that have been stopped at red lights when the car behind them didn’t stop in time. Two got out of the way just in time, and the third wound up with a broken back. When I ride, I try to never stop behind a car. It’s much safer for me to slip to the front, as I don’t have to worry about being rear ended by some twit whose attention is focused on the car in front of me, rather than on my brake lights. It’s not about “being first”, it’s about getting to my destination alive. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/32 "2005-08-16T15:37:11Z")
I stopped biking because of the risk. As a motorist, it’s fine with me if they maneuver to their own advantage. They are the ones at risk. I just hope it never comes to an accident. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/33 "2005-08-16T16:08:15Z")
> [@ntucker](#): > > Yeah. If you are on a bicycle, and you can pass traffic because it’s stopped or going very slowly, don’t you do it? I’d consider it weird to stop and “wait your turn” when it doesn’t do anyone any good. Do you pass in front of other cars waiting at a red light on your bicycle? I sure don’t. They’ve probably already had to pass me before we got to the light; I’m sure not going to pass by them and make them pass me again. At a red light, I take the center of the right lane, in line with the cars. We accelerate at about the same rate when the light turns green, and when we clear the intersection, I move over to let the cars behind pass. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/34 "2005-08-16T16:10:57Z")
As a battle-hardened L.A. driver, I can say I am happy to have the motorcyclist pass me. They’re hard to see, and I’d rather have one in front of me than behind me. I always scooch over a bit in my lane, if possible, to let one pass. I even get a friendly wave from time to time. I can understand why some drivers try to block motorcycles from splitting past them. They’re the same rude jerks who make driving a pain in the ass for the rest of us too. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/35 "2005-08-16T16:22:43Z")
Three clarifications: First, unless California laws have changed, lane-splitting is legal as long as your bike isn’t exceeding the speed of the cars by more than a certain amount (I think it’s 5mph, but my memory’s fuzzy). At a light, this shouldn’t be a problem. Second, although riding _between_ the lanes is OK, passing the cars on the shoulder is illegal. Third, if you’re going to do this, then you’d bloody well better accelerate when the light turns green so you don’t slow everyone down. I had a guy on a Harley lane-split his way in front of me, and then proceed along at 5mph below the speed limit. I was in a hurry, and he thoroughly pissed me off. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/36 "2005-08-16T16:49:27Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I always scooch over a bit in my lane, if possible, to let one pass. I even get a friendly wave from time to time. Being an LA motorcyclist, allow me to extend my profound thanks. I really do try to wave as often as I can, but sometimes I need my hands (and focus) for other purposes - but rest assured, even if I’m not waving, I’m sending gigaoodles of good energy in your direction. FWIW, riding a bike cuts about 30 minutes off the time per day I spend commuting (admittedly, mostly due to diamond lanes), I don’t have to yell at the talk radio hosts and a full-face helmet improve my looks considerably. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Goob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034/37 "2005-08-16T17:01:28Z")
Legal lane splitting could be the only reason I’ve ever heard that could make me wish I was in California. People here in New York would lose their minds if we could go ahead of them at red lights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-between-stopped-cars-at-a-light-on-a-motorcycle-legal-paging-johnnyla/317034.md?page=1)