# Riding bicycle on roads=death. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572 "2004-08-12T18:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/81 "2004-08-15T15:08:28Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > And I understand that cyclists get frustrated with the way some drivers treat them. Like the way _you_ are treating us in this thread. Do you understand that as well? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/82 "2004-08-15T15:23:07Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > The real world…The real world is where we live. Roads are used by cars, trucks and busses. Every consumable item is delivered by truck. When cyclists impede the flow of traffic, they drive up costs. To everyone. But if those cyclists switch to cars, they will end up taking more road space. They will also emit more pollution, and also get less healthy and require more service from the health care system. And there’s also the cost of military operations that are consequences of our dependence on foreign oil. > [@](#): > > But some cyclists will **choose** to impede the flow of traffic, lots of traffic, rather than use a bike path that was designed for them. I?ll concede that the bike path may be a little slower for the cyclist. If there is no path, by all means, use the road. If there is a _bike path_, I agree. But the one path you are describing appears to be a _multi-use trail_. It’s _not_ designed for bicycles. Roads are wide enough that a car can safely pass a slower moving vehicle. Multi-use trails are often not wide enough that a bicycle can safely pass a family of 4 walking their 2 dogs. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/83 "2004-08-15T15:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > b) The idea that the fact that there is an alternative pathway it should automatically be used is repulsive. Just because this MUT is nice, does not mean others will be. If you start pushing cyclists to trails simply because they are there then you are legitimizing the idea that bikes must be on MUTs wherever they exist, no matter what their conditions. Its like saying “gee the back of this bus is looks shiney and clean, what the problem with being forced to use it?” OK. I’ll agree with you here. But, I think that there are some places that a cyclist should be pushed to the MUT. The dam road is an example. Perhaps we need some MUT’s that have enforced bike lanes (hard to do). And as I said before. I’m referring to a very specific situation. Where I live. We have a wonderful MUT right next to the highway. EVERYTHING that comes in or out of this county goes down the road that parallels that path. Bikes on the road DO slow things up. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/84 "2004-08-15T15:39:48Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Perhaps we need some MUT?s that have enforced bike lanes (hard to do). No, what we need are _highways_ with enforced bike lanes. Not segregated trails. Trails are for recreation. Highways are for transportaiton. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/85 "2004-08-15T15:39:56Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Like the way _you_ are treating us in this thread. Do you understand that as well? Hmmm. I guess you are talking about the attitude comment I directed at Mr. M. Yep. Uncalled for. And my apologies. I did not intend to direct it at a single poster. I really don’t think I’m treating anyone bad though. We are debating in the pit. I’m just trying to point out some things that I see. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/86 "2004-08-15T15:49:10Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Hmmm. I guess you are talking about the attitude comment I directed at Mr. M. Actually I was referring to the attitude that roads are for cars, that cars inherently have higher priority than bikes. But I guess those are your beliefs and not how you treated us, so I went too far with that comment. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/87 "2004-08-15T16:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > No, what we need are highways with enforced bike lanes. That would work, if the bikes use them. It will take some dedication from the road department to sweep them and keep them free from debris (we already do that on the MUT). It would be harder in the cities. I mentioned before, that I would like to see a bike lane/shoulder on the road that I travel home. There is no MUT. It would be safer for everyone and make it a much nicer ride for cyclists. > [@scr4](#): > > Actually I was referring to the attitude that roads are for cars It’s getting better up here and we are getting some shoulders on our roads. Sorry, maybe it’s a local thing but some cyclist believe they own the road. Again. Two lane highway. It’s the only way in or out of here. I fully support a bike lane along the road. I’m kinda bummed that we are going to some 4 lane road. But, progress. Gotta have it. And frankly, roads are made for cars. Put in a bike lane? GREAT! IMHO, a two lane mountain highway is not a very good place for bikes on a heavly trafficed road. Especially when there is an alternative. Looks good to me, but I guess I’m wrong or the bikers would not use the highway. I get bugged when cyclist complain that they aren’t part of the problem. They slow down a road that brings in **ALL** the goods and services to a community when the cyclist does have an option to use the MUT. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/88 "2004-08-15T17:30:59Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Again - ‘Prudence’ > > From [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) - > > “These nouns refer to the exercise of good judgment, common sense, and even caution, especially in the conduct of practical matters” > > So. Since only two people have died it’s not ‘prudent’. Is that what it takes? How many deaths before it becomes prudent to use the trail? How much traffic should be slowed down? Should we build the $20,000,000 bike path if the cyclists don’t use it? You stated that the two people had died ‘in the county’ **NOT** on that road. Unless you can establish that the deaths or serious injuries are caused on that road your claim is illegitimate. I don’t care how much you spend on a bike path, if it isn’t helpful to transportation it will not get used. Throwing money at a bike path won’t end cyclists right to use the roads. Get that through your skull! > [@](#): > > Ahhh. More attitude. Ah, you seem to think that becuase you were unwilling to use your rights and ride on the road, others should also do that because you’ve deemed it ‘prudent’. Nonsense! Calling what I said ‘attitude’ starts to smell of ‘y’all cyclists are gettin’ uppity’. Still fail to seee the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/89 "2004-08-15T17:32:43Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > OK. I’ll agree with you here. But, I think that there are some places that a cyclist should be pushed to the MUT. The dam road is an example. The evidence you have presented does not support that contention. No deaths attributed to that road, no signifigant delays attributed completely to the cyclists. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/90 "2004-08-15T17:52:53Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > TI get bugged when cyclist complain that they aren’t part of the problem. They slow down a road that brings in **ALL** the goods and services to a community when the cyclist does have an option to use the MUT. Cyclists are not part of the problem. Or are it least minimal. Every study that has been done has shown that cars are the real problem. At least one study has found that 68 billion dollars in gas is wasted by traffic delays, all of which is atttributable to car-to-car traffic (the majority of that waste takes place on roads not accessable by bikes). Bikes rank so far behind in the cause of delays its laughable. Most delays caused by bikes is a fraction of a delay caused by something as mundane as a traffic light. Delays that are longer are a factor of excessive traffic, not the cyclist. The “bikes hold things up” excuse is a myth. Don’t throw economic bullshit around. Its just an excuse to tread on someones right to the road. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/91 "2004-08-15T18:37:14Z")
Mr. M. [http://www.amasci.com/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html](http://www.amasci.com/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html) > [@](#): > > a) The ‘slow-down’ you claim is such a problem is nowhere near as bad as caused by other sources. I’ve explained this to you many times. By comparison, the slow down on multi-use trails is much more significant, percentage wise. Significant, percentage wise? OK. For whom? Percentage wise for whom? It effects everyone. > [@](#): > > I’ve explained this to you many times. Really? How is it more significant to slow one cyclist on a MUT than slow down traffic on a highway? I’ll give you that you can travel faster on a highway on a bike, and need to slow on an MUT, but the effect of a bike an a highway effects many, many more people. Including all commodities. I pay for a free bus service with my taxes. I can’t use it. I also pay for the MUT through taxes. It gets my goat when bike riders bitch and complain that they can’t use the dam road. And it has a MUT RIGHT next to it. I’m talking 10 feet. If they want to widen the dam road, fine, go for it. > [@](#): > > Unless you can establish that the deaths or serious injuries are caused on that road your claim is illegitimate. I don’t care how much you spend on a bike path, if it isn’t helpful to transportation it will not get used. Throwing money at a bike path won’t end cyclists right to use the roads. Get that through your skull! My claim is not about death or injury. I retracted that. Although I believe a bike on this road is dangerous. I would not ride on that road so you said my riding skills are bad (they are). Good on ya. I would like to see better riding paths. It would work to make our roads (I work for the county) safer. As I said before, I have learned a little from this exchange. Mr M. - and all others. There are different needs everywhere. Again, I’m being very specific to my county. I don’t think anyone can see the overall picture. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/92 "2004-08-15T19:08:29Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Mr. M. > > [SCIENCE HOBBYIST: Traffic Waves, physics for bored commuters](http://www.amasci.com/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html) > > Significant, percentage wise? OK. For whom? > > Percentage wise for whom? It effects everyone. Already explained. A loss of a handful of seconds vs. a doubling of the travel time required for cyclists. > [@](#): > > Really? How is it more significant to slow one cyclist on a MUT than slow down traffic on a highway? I’ll give you that you can travel faster on a highway on a bike, and need to slow on an MUT, but the effect of a bike an a highway effects many, many more people. Including all commodities. Obviously I need to say this with block letters: BIKES DO NOT SLOW DOWN TRAFFIC TO ANY SIGNIFIGANT EXTENT. THIS IS A MYTH AND A PREJUDICE. SLOWDOWNS CAUSED BY OTHER CARS AND OTHER EVENTS ARE A MUCH GREATER WASTE. EVERY STUDY CONDUCTED HAS DEMONSTRATED THIS. > [@](#): > > I pay for a free bus service with my taxes. I can’t use it. I also pay for the MUT through taxes. It gets my goat when bike riders bitch and complain that they can’t use the dam road. And it has a MUT RIGHT next to it. I’m talking 10 feet. You still just don’t get it. The MUT is almost never a solution, no matter how much money you throw at it. And don’t throw the ‘taxes’ bit at me. My taxes pay for roads that I am specifically not allowed to use. If you country is wasting 20 million on a MUT that many are not going to use, perhaps its time to think twice about it, rather than trying to force them onto a MUT that they do not wish to use. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/93 "2004-08-15T20:23:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Already explained. A loss of a handful of seconds vs. a doubling of the travel time required for cyclists. Explained? Where? I cited this, where is your cite? A slow moving vehicle will screw up traffic. Big time. In my situation, because the bike does not want to use the MUT, it can kill traffic flow. The cyclist can save 5 minutes over the MUT but snarls traffic on the highway. Is that a good idea? A couple of bikes on the road can shut it down. 20mph. There is the MUT right there, perhaps it would be a good idea to use it. I will push for some better bike access(we have a great system) My message is, please don’t block the only way in and out of the county if you have an alternative. > [@](#): > > rather than trying to force them onto a MUT that they do not wish to use. Well. That particular road I’m talking about is a nut. Perhaps we should open it up to skateboards? This exchange has shown me that riders don’t really give a damn about any one but their selves. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/94 "2004-08-15T20:46:37Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > This exchange has shown me that riders don’t really give a damn about any one but their selves. And I’m getting the same exact message from car drivers. But that’s the nature of Pit threads, I suppose. _shrug_ I’m still not getting a clear picture of this particular MUT in question. Is there one on each side of the highway? If not, for the cyclists on the other side (i.e. for whom the MUT is on the left side of the highway), is there a safe way to cross the highway and get to the MUT? Does the MUT have intersections (with highways), and are there traffic lights there? Is the MUT free of puddles and mud? I’ve seen many MUTs that are more dangerous than highways for those and other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/95 "2004-08-15T21:25:20Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Explained? Where? I cited this, where is your cite? > > With excess traffic _anything_ will > > A slow moving vehicle will screw up traffic. Big time. With excess traffic _anything_ will screw up traffic. The problem is not the thing that allegedly causes delay, but the excess of vehicles. Do you think adding more cars to the mix will solve the problem? Because that is what will happen if you start pushing bikes to places they do not want to be (i.e. the MUT.) > [@](#): > > In my situation, because the bike does not want to use the MUT, it can kill traffic flow. The cyclist can save 5 minutes over the MUT but snarls traffic on the highway. Obviosuly, there is a reason the cyclists are using the road instead of the MUT. Your "5 minutes’ claim tries to dismiss their reasons. > [@](#): > > Is that a good idea? A couple of bikes on the road can shut it down. 20mph. There is the MUT right there, perhaps it would be a good idea to use it. 20mph is hardly ‘shut down’. How long is the delay length? If it is more than a few car lengths there are too many cars for the situation. There is your problem. Unless there is a bike in every lane, your complaint is aimed at the wrong target. > [@](#): > > I will push for some better bike access(we have a great system) My message is, please don’t block the only way in and out of the county if you have an alternative. You have failed to establish that the alternative is legitimate. > [@](#): > > Well. That particular road I’m talking about is a nut. Perhaps we should open it up to skateboards? Skateboards are not considered vehicles. Bicycles are. > [@](#): > > This exchange has shown me that riders don’t really give a damn about any one but their selves. Are you aware of why most ‘bike trails requirements’ were removed from vehcular codes? Because, even if they are well maintained, they are inevitably poorly designed. There’s no such thing as a professional bike trail designer in the USA. Any biker worth his salt with design skills would know the uselessness of such a trail. So the job falls to people basicly playing guessing games. The results are horrible. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/96 "2004-08-15T21:25:43Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I’m still not getting a clear picture of this particular MUT in question. Is there one on each side of the highway? It is all on one side. The county excavatided half a mountain so that the riders would not need to cross. There is nearly nothing between the two towns. And anything that is, is on the side of the MUT. > [@](#): > > is there a safe way to cross the highway and get to the MUT? Does the MUT have intersections (with highways), and are there traffic lights there? There is one light on that streatch of road. It intersecst where we are building a new MUT. The light controls access to a highshool. That’s it. Sometimes a bit busy, but dead on the weekends. [quote] Is the MUT free of puddles and mud?[/qoute]I can’t say for sure. But our county spends a tremendous amout of money keeping tourists happy. I’m in GIS. I know the roads and trails, I would say that the path is always in good shape. As good as any sufface street in a city anyway. > [@](#): > > Does the MUT have intersections (with highways), Nope. We fixed that 5 years ago. > [@](#): > > Is the MUT free of puddles and mud? ::Snerk:: It’s a hell of a lot better than the roads around here. ---
**Author:** ![barking\_frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@barking\_frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barking_frog)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/97 "2004-08-16T12:54:00Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Hey, I’m all for separate bike lanes in urban areas, as long as everyone agrees to licencing fees on bikes to cover the costs. Right. Because roads are all paid by licensing fees on cars. :rolleyes: We all pay the same taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572/98 "2004-08-16T16:07:17Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > How about a flat fee of 15 bucks a year? Doesn’t have to be that complicated. > > Yeah, like road use taxes are wiped out by the collection bureaucracy. Around here the car registration doesn’t go to pay for roads, so why would bike registration go to pay for it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riding-bicycle-on-roads-death/259572.md?page=4)