# Rigamarole, You Are Either A Liar Or A Sociopath **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343 "2007-01-01T20:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/61 "2007-01-01T21:59:21Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] You can relax, friend. He’s gone now. [/QUOTE] Good. I hope he’s okay. But you’re still a douchebag. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/62 "2007-01-01T22:03:14Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] 😕 If someone is unresponsive, they _are_ in danger. That’s considered a medical emergency! [/QUOTE] The OP made no attempt to find out if he was unresponsive. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/63 "2007-01-01T22:04:55Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The OP made no attempt to find out if he was unresponsive. [/QUOTE] He observed him lying in a spray of “freezing” water without reacting to it. That’s unresponsive. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/64 "2007-01-01T22:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The OP made no attempt to find out if he was unresponsive. [/QUOTE] Right, because the guy was a bum, lying in the yard. Who gives a flying fuck if a bum is responsive or not? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/65 "2007-01-01T22:08:12Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Once again you add words. Who said anything about the specific conditions for hypothermia? [/quote] I did. > [@](#): > > Are you asking me to believe that, before today, if someone had asked you whether lying on the ground in freezing water for two hours was dangerous, you would have said “I don’t know”? You have already indicated in this thread that you are aware that someone can be “in danger from the cold.” Is it that you do not associate “freezing” with cold? If someone had said, “Say I fell asleep in 67 degree weather under a sprinkler. Would I die?” I would say, “I don’t have any idea.” Which is what I said in the other thread. “I checked [weather.com](http://weather.com) and it’s 67 degrees and sunny in Los Angeles. I know nothing about hypothermia. Is it likely under those circumstances?” ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/66 "2007-01-01T22:08:36Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The OP made no attempt to find out if he was unresponsive. [/QUOTE] And no attempt to find out if he was responsive, either. He just walked by. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/67 "2007-01-01T22:09:29Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] I don’t know what I’m looking for exactly, but I have a past history of people who think they’re helping me only causing me more problems, and that has surely colored my attitude toward a situation like this. [/QUOTE] How many of those times were you unconscious for two hours being showered with freezing water? > [@](#): > > I truly don’t believe that man wanted anyone’s “help” at the time (especially the police’s), Considering that your interaction with him was on a less personal level than that created by poking him with a stick, and that you believed he might be dead, on what basis do you pretend knowledge of what he might or might not want? > [@](#): > > and I already feel validated by the fact that he has now left and was not, in fact, dead. How the fuck do you know this? How do you know that he was not carried away? Dead? > [@](#): > > I was obviously being more concerned than I needed to be. We take care of ourselves. Damn, I hate to be trite, but that blew the irony meter all the way to hell and back. More concerned than you needed to be? Unfuckingbelievable. > [@](#): > > I always have, and when I really need help I seek it out myself. There’s no reason I would expect anyone to act differently. Does it occur to you that someone might need help and be unable to ask for it? If I were to see you being assaulted by three thugs, should I pass by because your teeth have been knocked out and you cannot speak? If you are unconscious in a car wreck, is it your desire that passersby wait until you wake up so as to be able to consult with you on the level of assistance required? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/68 "2007-01-01T22:11:02Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] He observed him lying in a spray of “freezing” water without reacting to it. That’s unresponsive. [/QUOTE] Well, no. Because you can consciously decide, for whatever fucked up reason, to do that. Not responding to attempts to rouse him is unresponsive. Simply doing something that looks uncomfortable or weird isn’t proof. It’s definitely evidence that something is off, and it’s definitely reason to try to rouse him. He should have gone to the dude, spoken, prodded him, and tried to get a response. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/69 "2007-01-01T22:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] And no attempt to find out if he was responsive, either. He just walked by. [/QUOTE] Right. The OP made no effort in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/70 "2007-01-01T22:13:10Z")
**jsgoddess** , I have to ask, why have you appointed yourself **Rigamarole** ’s apologist in chief in this matter? If you didn’t know before that he fucked up by leaving a man lying in a freezing spray of water for hours, then after reading the information in the MPSIMS thread about hypothermia you know it now. His behaviour was reprehensible and everyone except him seems to know that. So why are you making post after post after post defending the indefensible? ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/71 "2007-01-01T22:14:08Z")
I get your point, **jsgoddess,** about sometimes trying to help people ends up causing more problems, but here’s where I disagree with you on this situation. He was unwilling to make a personal effort to determine if this guy was even \*dead \*or not. The likelihood of him going to check his vital signs, or ask him if he needed help was nonexistent. Seeing that Rigamarole has lost his capacity for very basic human moral obligations, we counseled for at least calling the authorities. Which may not have been ideal in this situation for the bum, but was the best option at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/72 "2007-01-01T22:15:11Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] How the fuck do you know this? How do you know that he was not carried away? Dead? [/quote] You’re right that I don’t know for sure, but based on seeing him move positions well after the sprinklers had shut off, I’m making a reasonable guess. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/73 "2007-01-01T22:15:14Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I did. [/QUOTE] To what point? What do the specifics of hypothermia have to do with anything? > [@](#): > > If someone had said, “Say I fell asleep in 67 degree weather under a sprinkler. Would I die?” I would say, “I don’t have any idea.” Agan with the dissembling. That is not the question I asked. How about you answer my question? > [@](#): > > Which is what I said in the other thread. “I checked [weather.com](http://weather.com) and it’s 67 degrees and sunny in Los Angeles. I know nothing about hypothermia. Is it likely under those circumstances?” Is hypothermia the only danger? I asked about danger, not hypothermia. And your child? Is she still marinating in sprinkler du jour, or have you dried her off and warmed her? Did you really have no opinion before today as to whether lying motionless in freezing water for two hours was dangerous? It’s a yes/no question. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/74 "2007-01-01T22:16:27Z")
[QUOTE=xenophon41] He observed him lying in a spray of “freezing” water without reacting to it. That’s unresponsive. [/QUOTE] BINGO! ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/75 "2007-01-01T22:17:13Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] You’re right that I don’t know for sure, but based on seeing him move positions well after the sprinklers had shut off, I’m making a reasonable guess. [/QUOTE] Next time use the stick and make sure. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/76 "2007-01-01T22:20:53Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] You’re right that I don’t know for sure, but based on seeing him move positions well after the sprinklers had shut off, I’m making a reasonable guess. [/QUOTE] I wonder why he changed positions. Maybe someone else yelled at him until he rolled over? Who knows what did it. The fact that he moved -or was moved- sometime after you first saw him is still not a validation for inaction. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/77 "2007-01-01T22:21:10Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] You’re right that I don’t know for sure, but based on seeing him move positions well after the sprinklers had shut off, I’m making a reasonable guess. [/QUOTE] Maybe he moved because someone who doesn’t have a used disposable anal douche where his soul ought to be poked him with a stick. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/78 "2007-01-01T22:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] He was unwilling to make a personal effort to determine if this guy was even \*dead \*or not. The likelihood of him going to check his vital signs, or ask him if he needed help was nonexistent. [/QUOTE] Which is why I have said that he behaved really badly, and I think he will continue to try to justify his actions. To me, they have no justification. Yes, I can see that calling the cops is easier, and therefore maybe there was some hope of getting him off his ass to do that. But in a more general sense, since this isn’t exactly a rare occurrence in the world, I think people should be expected to do more than just call a cop. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/79 "2007-01-01T22:23:09Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The OP made no attempt to find out if he was unresponsive. [/QUOTE] If the guy is not responding at all to cold water hitting him, you can err on the side of caution. Plus, if you suspect someone is not responding when they should be, all you have to do is yell out “Hey buddy, you’re getting wet! You okay?” If you don’t get an answer, it’s better to have _someone_ go up and check on the guy, whether it’s you or a cop. As I said, you should never do anything that frightens you or that you’re not comfortable doing. That same running partner and I came across a passed out junkie on one of the trails we run. Neither one of us felt it was safe to approach him. There was just no way we were going to walk up to someone who might been on drugs or mentally ill, or possibly armed. We did get close enough to see if he was breathing and we called out to him. We called emergency services when there was no response. A patrol car came by to check it out. The cop said the guy was a wreck but didn’t appear to be in distress or need medical attention, but he’d come by to check on him again later. The cop didn’t berate us or anything. He said that was his job, to check out suspicious things, and it was the right thing for us to call it. You grow up being told “911 is not a toy! Do not misuse 911. 911 is for emergencies ONLY!” so a lot of people are more hesitant to use it than they ought to be. If they don’t see blood or witness violence, most people don’t think “emergency”, but a lot of emergencies look pretty damn peaceful. (I’m thinking of a high school buddy who just slumped over when his diabetes cuaght him by surprise.) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/80 "2007-01-01T22:23:26Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Well, no. Because you can consciously decide, for whatever fucked up reason, to do that. [/QUOTE] Lord have mercy! You need to stop digging. The hole is plenty deep. Are you actually advancing the hypothesis that this could have been an execise in self-control? Holy shit! I suppose I could choose not to respond to being kicked in the head. It could happen, right? Lying in motionless in freezing water is not a conscious decision. Shivering is an involuntary reflex. [QUOTE=Rigamarole] You’re right that I don’t know for sure, but based on seeing him move positions well after the sprinklers had shut off, I’m making a reasonable guess. [/QUOTE] I have absolutely no reason to believe that you are capable of being reasonable. And guessing is not knowing, so guesses really should not be offered as statements of fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343.md?page=5)