# Rigamarole, You Are Either A Liar Or A Sociopath **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343 "2007-01-01T20:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/81 "2007-01-01T22:30:06Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] To what point? What do the specifics of hypothermia have to do with anything? [/quote] What the fuck is your exact problem? The specifics of hypothermia have to do with HOW SOMEONE WOULD DIE BY GETTING COLD. > [@](#): > > Agan with the dissembling. That is not the question I asked. How about you answer my question? Your question doesn’t contain the same information as the OP. I reacted, and questioned, the specific information in the OP. > [@](#): > > Is hypothermia the only danger? I asked about danger, not hypothermia. As far as I know, yes. If I’m wrong, I would be happy to learn what the other dangers are, specifically. > [@](#): > > And your child? Is she still marinating in sprinkler du jour, or have you dried her off and warmed her? If the kid that I don’t have said she was cold, I’d dry her off. Did the “bum” say he was cold? > [@](#): > > Did you really have no opinion before today as to whether lying motionless in freezing water for two hours was dangerous? It’s a yes/no question. Maybe. As I’ve said. Maybe. MAYBE maybemaybemaybe. I know it’s rare on the Dope, but I admit when I don’t have information. I would have thought that maybe it could be dangerous. Maybe. I didn’t know, so I said I didn’t know. What the flying fuck do you want from me? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/82 "2007-01-01T22:30:08Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Once again you add words. Who said anything about the specific conditions for hypothermia? Are you asking me to believe that, before today, if someone had asked you whether lying on the ground in freezing water for two hours was dangerous, you would have said “I don’t know”? You have already indicated in this thread that you are aware that someone can be “in danger from the cold.” Is it that you do not associate “freezing” with cold? If you had a child, and she were lying in freezing water for two hours, would you call the library to get the facts on hypothermia, or would you dry her off and try to get her warm? [/QUOTE] I don’t understand your hard on against **jsgoddess**. She (?) did not understand the risk factors for hypothermia and said so in post [#21](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8109059&postcount=21) of the other thread. I answered in post [#28](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8109127&postcount=28). She acknowledged my response in post [#30](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8109148&postcount=30). This board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance, not berating people because they do not have the knowledge that you have. jsgoddess realized that she did not have some knowledge and asked about it. And you keep giving her crap because she did not already have this knowledge. About 20 years ago, I did not know that much more than jsgoddess about hypothermia. I had a boss that told me about getting hypothermia on a hike in 70 degree weather. It rained, he had no coat, and cotton clothes. By the time he got back to his truck, he could barely put the key in the ignition due his body shaking so bad. That is when I learned about hypothermia in mild temps. I’m glad that your knowledge from this subject came from the womb, others here had to learn one way or another. I think you owe jsgoddess an apology. Like they say, you don’t know what you don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/83 "2007-01-01T22:30:39Z")
Wow. Just…wow. There’s been a big stink on the DC local media this past year over a guy who was found stumbling on the street; the cops assumed he was drunk, called an ambulance, which didn’t bother to show up for nearly an hour, and the guy died. Turned out he was a reporter for the New York Times who had been mugged not far from his own home. Hewas not a bum. He was not drunk. He did not receive the treatment that a reasonable person should receive – just like you, Rigamarole, you shithead. What happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt that maybe he’s not just a bum or a junkie, and that maybe he needs help, and that a 30-second call to 911 to report him would be so hideous an act? Who are you to play God and decide that he’s not worth being even checked out to see whether he actually needs help? You are truly…I just have no words. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/84 "2007-01-01T22:35:27Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] If the guy is not responding at all to cold water hitting him, you can err on the side of caution. Plus, if you suspect someone is not responding when they should be, all you have to do is yell out “Hey buddy, you’re getting wet! You okay?” If you don’t get an answer, it’s better to have _someone_ go up and check on the guy, whether it’s you or a cop. As I said, you should never do anything that frightens you or that you’re not comfortable doing. That same running partner and I came across a passed out junkie on one of the trails we run. Neither one of us felt it was safe to approach him. There was just no way we were going to walk up to someone who might been on drugs or mentally ill, or possibly armed. We did get close enough to see if he was breathing and we called out to him. We called emergency services when there was no response. A patrol car came by to check it out. The cop said the guy was a wreck but didn’t appear to be in distress or need medical attention, but he’d come by to check on him again later. The cop didn’t berate us or anything. He said that was his job, to check out suspicious things, and it was the right thing for us to call it. You grow up being told “911 is not a toy! Do not misuse 911. 911 is for emergencies ONLY!” so a lot of people are more hesitant to use it than they ought to be. If they don’t see blood or witness violence, most people don’t think “emergency”, but a lot of emergencies look pretty damn peaceful. (I’m thinking of a high school buddy who just slumped over when his diabetes cuaght him by surprise.) [/QUOTE] Well said. All of it. **Swallowed My Cellphone** , posts like this one make me hope you stick around here for good. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/85 "2007-01-01T22:39:05Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] If the guy is not responding at all to cold water hitting him, you can err on the side of caution. Plus, if you suspect someone is not responding when they should be, all you have to do is yell out “Hey buddy, you’re getting wet! You okay?” If you don’t get an answer, it’s better to have _someone_ go up and check on the guy, whether it’s you or a cop. [/QUOTE] Which is why I have said that I would attempt to rouse him, then call 911 if he couldn’t be roused. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/86 "2007-01-01T22:45:00Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] Next time use the stick and make sure. [/QUOTE] I don’t mean to keep harping on this, but it is something that was in my first aid course way back when: Don’t approach someone or touch someone if you are not comfortable doing so. You do what you can, but you are under no obligation to physically involve yourself in an emergency if you are concerned about your personal safety. If you think someone needs help, but you don’t think you’re up to it, just call emergency services. I’m not going to fault **Rigamarole** for not wanting to get near the guy. We all have our limits when it comes to our sense of personal safety. Bad things can happen to good samaritans. That’s why you call the cops if you think something isn’t right. My running partner felt that approaching what appeared to be an unconscious old man on a busy sidewalk in broad daylight was reasonably safe, and when there was no response, she felt safe enough to touch him to check his vitals and assess his level of conciousness. She has stated flat out that she would not have gotten close if it had been night time or if he looked younger/stronger (she’s a small female). She admitted that she had been rather scared leaning in really close to listen for breath sounds, and was relieved that he was breathing because she didn’t want to have to do CPR (but said she would have). CPR would have been getting close to her limit when it comes to how brave she could be in that emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/87 "2007-01-01T22:54:40Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] I don’t understand your hard on against **jsgoddess**. She (?) did not understand the risk factors for hypothermia and said so in post [#21](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8109059&postcount=21) of the other thread. I answered in post [#28](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8109127&postcount=28). She acknowledged my response in post [#30](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8109148&postcount=30). [/QUOTE] This isn’t that thread, is it? I am calling bullshit on her because I do not believe her. I do not believe that she has never stuck her toe in a pool that is F 75 and jerked it out because the water was too cold. I am calling bullshit because it is just common sense that lying motionless in freezing water for two hours is bad for the human body. I am calling bullshit because she is trying to shift the discussion away from “dangerous” to “hypothermia.” Her defense of Rigamarole is based on the asumption that there is no way to really know whether lying motionless in freezing water for two hours might be bad, when any fool would know that lying motionless in freezing \*air \*for two hours is bad. I am calling bullshit because she suggested that lying motionless in freezing water for two hours might just be a _personal lifestyle choice_. Everything she said has been special pleading, and special pleading is bullshit. > [@](#): > > This board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance, not berating people because they do not have the knowledge that you have. jsgoddess realized that she did not have some knowledge and asked about it. And you keep giving her crap because she did not already have this knowledge. Like I said, I’m not buying it. > [@](#): > > About 20 years ago, I did not know that much more than jsgoddess about hypothermia. I had a boss that told me about getting hypothermia on a hike in 70 degree weather. It rained, he had no coat, and cotton clothes. By the time he got back to his truck, he could barely put the key in the ignition due his body shaking so bad. That is when I learned about hypothermia in mild temps. > I’m glad that your knowledge from this subject came from the womb, others here had to learn one way or another. The discussion is not about hypothermia, it is about whether a reasonable person would perceive potential harm to a person who is lying motionless in freezing water for two hours, and whether, absent any other knowledge, a call to 911 is on order. It is not a science test, for crying out loud. I do not specifically know why drinking radiator fluid is bad for someone, but that lack of knowledge does not prevemt me from seeing the potential harm in it. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/88 "2007-01-01T22:56:20Z")
This is why I fucking hate society sometimes. Bums, hobos, dregs of society, whatever label you want to plaster them with, are _human fucking beings_. They’re not even _criminals_ in any significant way yet so many people treat them with utter contempt. Why? Why is their very existence found so offensive? What is it that they did besides fall upon ultimate hard times? (I am ignoring those who are homeless by choice, who I would wager number fewer than the ones who’d get off the streets if they had the option) Is it because they’re all drunks? They have poor hygiene? A lack of education? Who the hell are you to judge them practically sight unseen, even if the person _is_ homeless, which you pointedly avoided even attempting to ascertain? Jesus fucking Christmas. If I see someone in that condition, especially under circumstances that should otherwise have woken them up, I’d be on my cell calling the authorities as soon as possible, and I’d tell them to call in the paramedics just in case. Why _wouldn’t_ I? It costs me absolutely nothing (except maybe a few cell phone minutes depending on the time of day) and isn’t going to take much of my time. Is your time so ridiculously valuable that giving up a small portion of it to be a good samaritan is going to break the bank? Or are you really so morally bereft that you just don’t give a damn? Come on. Seriously. It’s a complete no-brainer. It doesn’t matter one iota what the man’s residential status is. It’s another human being like prostrate on the ground being soaked to the core by freezing sprinklers, possibly even dead or dying. And if he wasn’t dead yet, every second you wasted debating with yourself over whether you should call the cops or just let him rot is another second closer to death he drew. I suppose it was just that much easier to assume he was dead and let someone else deal with it. What a great way to go through life it must be to ignore everything that does not directly concern you whatever the consequences and no matter how easy it would have been to call in some help – even anonymously from a pay phone. I guess we should also be so apathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/89 "2007-01-01T22:56:42Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Which is why I have said that I would attempt to rouse him, then call 911 if he couldn’t be roused. [/QUOTE] Oh, please understand, I’m not being accusatory with respect to _you_ or your posts, I do understand fully that _you_ would have attempted to rouse him. It is just a shame that **Rigamarole** did not. The scene left enough of an impression on **Rig** that he _posted_ about it. If a person’s gut feeling says “something about this is not right,” then it is okay to go with that feeling and call someone whose job description includes assessing situations to determine if there is an emergency or not. Just walking away is not the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/90 "2007-01-01T22:57:49Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] I’m not going to fault **Rigamarole** for not wanting to get near the guy. We all have our limits when it comes to our sense of personal safety. Bad things can happen to good samaritans. That’s why you call the cops if you think something isn’t right. [/QUOTE] I’m not going to fault him for not wanting to touch the guy either. I wouldn’t want to touch him either (it was, however, Rig who brought up the notion of poking with sticks in his OP). I am going to fault him for being such a complete creep that he not only passed this human being once, he passed him again after two hours and did nothing either time and then assumed he was all right based on seeing the person in a different position when he has no idea what happened to get the person into that new position. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/91 "2007-01-01T22:58:34Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] The scene left enough of an impression on **Rig** that he _posted_ about it. If a person’s gut feeling says “something about this is not right,” then it is okay to go with that feeling and call someone whose job description includes assessing situations to determine if there is an emergency or not. Just walking away is not the right thing to do. [/QUOTE] Agreed. He obviously knew something was off yet he did nothing. That’s worse than being oblivious in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/92 "2007-01-01T23:02:18Z")
In my community, you can call the police and ask them to conduct a welfare check on an individual who may be in distress. You don’t have to give your name. I’m not a person who can perform a medical evaluation, nor am I a person with adequate personal protection to “poke” or otherwise attempt to rouse someone I don’t know. I am a person who can call those people. I would hope that if that were a friend, colleague, or relative of mine someone would call the police rather than assuming that he was a “bum” or somehow deserved to be lying on the street. That’s not for me to assess. What I can tell you is that people do get intocicated, and people also have strokes, get mugged, have reactions to medication, have Alzheimer’s, etc. My father had a massive heart attack and was helped by strangers who were concerned about him. Fortunately he was able to give some account of himself. If nobody had seen him until he was unconscious, I’d hate to think that they would have just left him there. If they had, it’s very clear that he would have died. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/93 "2007-01-01T23:04:51Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] You can relax, friend. He’s gone now. [/QUOTE] Yeah, his corpse is probably in a drawer in the morgue, but hey, your lawn is bum-less now so it’s all ok. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/94 "2007-01-01T23:08:30Z")
I have to agree that if the water did not rouse the guy, then he was in some serious trouble, if not necessarily from the water, then from whatever condition caused him to be lying there. Isn’t dousing someone with cold water a common way to attempt to rouse them? ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/95 "2007-01-01T23:13:33Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] I am going to fault him for being such a complete creep that he not only passed this human being once, he passed him again after two hours and did nothing either time and then assumed he was all right based on seeing the person in a different position when he has no idea what happened to get the person into that new position. [/QUOTE] I agree with you completely. **Rigamarole** ’s negligence was morally fucked up and devoid of basic human compassion. He was a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/96 "2007-01-01T23:13:36Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I have to agree that if the water did not rouse the guy, then he was in some serious trouble, if not necessarily from the water, then from whatever condition caused him to be lying there. Isn’t dousing someone with cold water a common way to attempt to rouse them? [/QUOTE] Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it was David Blaine trying out a new stunt. Or Aquaman just copping a few z’s. ---
**Author:** ![gaucho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@gaucho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaucho)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/97 "2007-01-01T23:14:40Z")
Self-righteous non-urbanites are annoying. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/98 "2007-01-01T23:15:23Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I have to agree that if the water did not rouse the guy, then he was in some serious trouble, if not necessarily from the water, then from whatever condition caused him to be lying there. Isn’t dousing someone with cold water a common way to attempt to rouse them? [/QUOTE] Well in TV & Movies, I have usually seen talking, shaking a little or a cold compress and maybe smelling salts if they are on hand. Jim ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/99 "2007-01-01T23:19:16Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Because I don’t know (or didn’t, before the other thread) what specific conditions were necessary for hypothermia. It was “even a question” because I didn’t know, and I said I didn’t know. [/QUOTE] FYI, I just saw an episode of “I Shouldn’t Be Alive.” 4 men had to ditch their plane in the Sea of Cortez. Even though the water temp was 80 degrees, all of them risked hypothermia because water depletes heat from your body quicker than air. The bum’s coat probably served as an insulator, but it would have to be one hell of an insulator to keep your body at 98 degrees on a 67 degree day… ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343/100 "2007-01-01T23:25:37Z")
[QUOTE=gaucho] Self-righteous non-urbanites are annoying. [/QUOTE] Yup. They rank right up there with dead guys on the lawn. Life \*can \*be a bitch sometimes, can’t it? Thank God there are urbanites around to remind us what is \*really \*important. Wouldn’t want to lose perspective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rigamarole-you-are-either-a-liar-or-a-sociopath/386343.md?page=6)