# Right to bear arms
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 4, 2015, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396 "2015-12-04T09:08:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/21 "2015-12-04T15:15:22Z")
[Everyone has a right to bear arms](http://www.hotdogsandguns.com/2015/08/the-right-to-bear-arms.html). Just sayin’
[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
I’m obviously no gun expert, but I bet one of these could.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Stoneburg]
Say hello to my little friend… The General Electric Minigun M-134. It can fire up to 6000 rounds per minute, so if you can just get the 1000 deer to line up properly…
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I doubt you’d kill but a fraction of the 1000 proposed deer with either of those unless you chained the deer down…especially the metal storm. No, what you want is one of [these](http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/30/atomic_cannon.jpg)…and one of [these](https://slm-assets1.secondlife.com/assets/2994114/lightbox/Wood%20Horse%20Corral_002.jpg?1297299290) for the deer (slightly bigger for 1000 deer, of course). 😛
Sadly, none of these fine weapons are available to the general public, despite 'dopers apparently thinking Americans can get any type of gun they want anytime they want it, and if they want ‘something that can fell 1000 deer in under a minute?’ they can just get it.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/22 "2015-12-04T15:22:05Z")
I think the question still remains what kind of firepower is it reasonable for a private person to have? When would one need more than a six-shooter and a shotgun? If the Sandy Hook shooter had to reload every six shots, what would the death count have been? Six shots were enough for Dirty Harry (do you feel lucky, punk?), why does one need more?
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### Author:  [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/23 "2015-12-04T15:22:19Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> [Everyone has a right to bear arms](http://www.hotdogsandguns.com/2015/08/the-right-to-bear-arms.html). Just sayin’
>
> Yeah, I doubt you’d kill but a fraction of the 1000 proposed deer with either of those unless you chained the deer down…especially the metal storm. No, what you want is one of [these](http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/30/atomic_cannon.jpg)…and one of [these](https://slm-assets1.secondlife.com/assets/2994114/lightbox/Wood%20Horse%20Corral_002.jpg?1297299290) for the deer (slightly bigger for 1000 deer, of course). 😛
>
> Sadly, none of these fine weapons are available to the general public, despite 'dopers apparently thinking Americans can get any type of gun they want anytime they want it, and if they want ‘something that can fell 1000 deer in under a minute?’ they can just get it.
lol
Ok, your deer hunting skills are obviously superior to mine. I was going for helicopter+minigun when howitzer+corral is obviously the better choice.
But how about a genetically designed airborne anti-dear virus? :dubious:
Those f-cking lichen eaters really bring out my dark side…
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### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/24 "2015-12-04T15:26:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> I think the question still remains what kind of firepower is it reasonable for a private person to have? When would one need more than a six-shooter and a shotgun? If the Sandy Hook shooter had to reload every six shots, what would the death count have been? Six shots were enough for Dirty Harry (do you feel lucky, punk?), why does one need more?
[Speed-loader.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedloader) When I was a deputy sheriff, some of the older guys who had been trained in the 60’s or 70’s still carried revolvers. They reloaded with these about as fast as most deputies could switch magazines out in an autoloader.
[Shotguns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun)aren’t always what you seem to think they are, either.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/25 "2015-12-04T15:31:29Z")
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> [Speed-loader.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedloader) When I was a deputy sheriff, some of the older guys who had been trained in the 60’s or 70’s still carried revolvers. They reloaded with these about as fast as most deputies could switch magazines out in an autoloader.
>
> [Shotguns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun)aren’t always what you seem to think they are, either.
But your typical mass murderer may not be highly skilled in reloading and is going to be so full of adrenaline it might be even harder. I think whatever can be done to slow this kind of person down is a positive thing.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/26 "2015-12-04T15:32:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> I think the question still remains what kind of firepower is it reasonable for a private person to have? When would one need more than a six-shooter and a shotgun? If the Sandy Hook shooter had to reload every six shots, what would the death count have been? Six shots were enough for Dirty Harry (do you feel lucky, punk?), why does one need more?
Why does one need that many (would be the next progression)? Why do you need more than one shot with your handgun perhaps one shell limit in the shot gun? Then…why does one need that many? How about one spitball and perhaps a paper football you can bat at someone? Then…why does one need that many…
BTW, I’m not sure if you know this or not, but a speedloader can reload a revolver as fast as a clip can be reloaded into a semi-automatic pistol. And even saying one is taking the time to reload a revolver isn’t saying that much unless you have the shells loose in your jeans pocket or something. With an extractor and even minimal practice it might take you 6 seconds to reload a revolver by hand and get it back into action.
ETA: Or what Scumpup said.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/27 "2015-12-04T15:34:00Z")
Oh boy! Another thread about _Guns – God’s Gift to the Exceptional Nation™_.
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Our elected representatives. Let one guy run on the undisputed right to own bazookas, another run on sensible restrictions.
>
> Who decides what is sensible? You?
It seems rather clear that **BobLibDem** deliberately set up a scenario that depicts the _voters_ deciding. (Is the Exceptional Nation™ still a democracy?)
Perhaps it’s rude to assume that you read the post you respond to, but if you did, it sounds almost like you’re saying that when the voters make a decision you consider not “sensible” you needn’t abide by it.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/28 "2015-12-04T15:37:31Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> Oh boy! Another thread about _Guns – God’s Gift to the Exceptional Nation™_.
>
> It seems rather clear that **BobLibDem** deliberately set up a scenario that depicts the _voters_ deciding. (Is the Exceptional Nation™ still a democracy?)
>
> Perhaps it’s rude to assume that you read the post you respond to, but if you did, it sounds almost like you’re saying that when the voters make a decision you consider not “sensible” you needn’t abide by it.
Naw…it’s yet another in the long list of ‘America? Evil AND stupid, or just evil? Or just stupid?’ threads. And everyone is coming out of the woodwork to chime in and get their digs in. Thanks for joining the party, btw.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/29 "2015-12-04T15:37:56Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> Why does one need that many (would be the next progression)? Why do you need more than one shot with your handgun perhaps one shell limit in the shot gun? Then…why does one need that many? How about one spitball and perhaps a paper football you can bat at someone? Then…why does one need that many…
Let’s flip it around a bit- when has a private citizen ever had to fire more than six shots to repel a home invasion? It seems to me that society should balance that frequency vs. the times that someone has come out with guns blazing and mowed down multiple innocent victims. My take is that our elected representatives should be assessing the relative risks and pass laws accordingly.
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### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/30 "2015-12-04T15:39:14Z")
Voters have, through the officials they have elected, decided all sorts of dumbass or evil, or both, things were sensible. Do I need to list some for you? They are pretty well known…slavery, for example, as well as all the Jim Crow laws that followed in its wake.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/31 "2015-12-04T15:43:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Let’s flip it around a bit- when has a private citizen ever had to fire more than six shots to repel a home invasion? It seems to me that society should balance that frequency vs. the times that someone has come out with guns blazing and mowed down multiple innocent victims. My take is that our elected representatives should be assessing the relative risks and pass laws accordingly.
If our elected officials got to decide what the relative risk was to the public for anything and ‘pass laws accordingly’ (and if they could be trusted to actually make a good and fair assessment AND pass laws accordingly) we’d have nuclear power plants everywhere, none of us would be allowed to drink a drop of alcohol or smoke a single cigarette (or use any tobacco product at all), and McDonald’s would be out of business tomorrow.
As to your 6 shots to repel a home invasion, I’m not going to bother looking that up since it’s irrelevant. When does the average American need an 480 HP big block engine (or a high performance sports car)? How often does the average American need most of the things they have?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/32 "2015-12-04T16:27:34Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> As to your 6 shots to repel a home invasion, I’m not going to bother looking that up since it’s irrelevant. When does the average American need an 480 HP big block engine (or a high performance sports car)? How often does the average American need most of the things they have?
So you are saying that we have as much need, and right, to high capacity weaponry as we do high performance sports cars?
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### Author:  [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/33 "2015-12-04T16:27:58Z")
In Wisconsin one does have the right to carry knives and swords. At least openly.
Legislation to get rid of the concealed carry license requirement to conceal edge weapons recently passed as did a repeal of the stupid ban on [switchblades](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=634701). Been in my state senator and assembly reps ear on that idiotic law for years.
Now we just have to get rid of the dumb requirement for a license to carry a firearm concealed. One doesn’t need to be licensed to carry it openly, or to carry concealed on private property, why on Earth should you need a license to cover it up while in public?
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/34 "2015-12-04T16:37:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> So you are saying that we have as much need, and right, to high capacity weaponry as we do high performance sports cars?
Define high capacity.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/35 "2015-12-04T16:42:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> So you are saying that we have as much need, and right, to high capacity weaponry as we do high performance sports cars?
I’m saying ‘need’ is not the driving force behind what people want. We don’t base every decision in society on ‘need’. We don’t ‘need’ alcohol or tobacco, yet we want them. We don’t ‘need’ that double cheese burger, cart sized fries and a trough sized coke (along with that double frapachino thingy and an apple pie) either…but we want it. Most of us don’t ‘need’ a gun in our house from a probability perspective, and we don’t ‘need’ a 12 shot or 20 shot or 50 shot clip either…but we wants it, yes, we WANTS IT MY PRECIOUS!!
Sorry, was channeling Gollum there…
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/36 "2015-12-04T16:47:28Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> I’m saying ‘need’ is not the driving force behind what people want. We don’t base every decision in society on ‘need’. We don’t ‘need’ alcohol or tobacco, yet we want them. We don’t ‘need’ that double cheese burger, cart sized fries and a trough sized coke (along with that double frapachino thingy and an apple pie) either…but we want it. Most of us don’t ‘need’ a gun in our house from a probability perspective, and we don’t ‘need’ a 12 shot or 20 shot or 50 shot clip either…but we wants it, yes, we WANTS IT MY PRECIOUS!!
>
> Sorry, was channeling Gollum there…
Are you saying I don’t need the 100K rounds of ammo I have? Nonsense!
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/37 "2015-12-04T16:49:48Z")
> [@Bone](#):
>
> Are you saying I don’t need the 100K rounds of ammo I have? Nonsense!
Gollum gollum…
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/38 "2015-12-04T16:52:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> But why _not_ knives and swords? Are they not arms?
Sure. I agree they’re arms.
As **Bone** points out above, there’s case law that does hold that blades are protected by the Second Amendment. The Connecticut Supreme Court, to pick another example, said in _State v. DeCiccio_, 105 A. 3d 165 (Conn. 2014):
> [@](#):
>
> Guided by the definition of the term “arms,” as articulated in District of Columbia v. Heller (citations omitted) . . . . we examine the military origins and history of the dirk knife, starting with the fact that, as a general matter, fixed, long blade "[k]nives have long been part of American military equipment. The federal Militia Act of 1792 [c. 33, 1 Stat. 271] required all able-bodied free white men between [the ages of] eighteen and forty-five to possess, among other items, `a sufficient bayonet.' This establishes both that knives were common and were arms for militia purposes. Colonial militia laws required that men (and sometimes all householders, regardless of sex) own not only firearms but also bayonets or swords; the laws sometimes required [the] carrying [of] swords in [nonmilitia] situations, such as when going to church. In New England, the typical choice for persons required to own a bayonet or a sword was the sword because most militiamen fulfilled their legal obligation to possess a firearm by owning a `fowling piece’ (an ancestor to the shotgun, particularly useful for bird hunting), and these firearms did not have studs [on] which to mount a bayonet.
That case quotes with approval Oregon’s _State v. Delgado_, 692 P. 2d 610 (Ore. 1984):
> [@](#):
>
> During the American Revolution at least two states, New Hampshire and New York, required their militiamen to carry a jackknife. Even during the mid-18th century, some of these “jackknives” were rather more lethal than their name suggests, measuring two feet long with the blade extended, and designed solely for fighting. G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution 247 (1973). Some others had blades over 16 inches long, extending well beyond the hilt even when folded, and were designed to be used open or closed. “Gentlemen” and officers during this same era often carried canes with slender daggers mounted inside which could be drawn with a quick tug and were used for personal defense. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution, supra, at 239. In the early 19th century a special form of dagger also developed, the pocket or folding dagger, with blades ranging in size from four to sixteen inches; they were intended to be carried in the pocket or in special sheathes.
>
> It is clear, then, that knives have played an important role in American life, both as tools and as weapons. The folding pocketknife, in particular, since the early 18th century has been commonly carried by men in America and used primarily for work, but also for fighting.
The Oregon case rests on state constitutional grounds, but pre-dates Heller and MacDonald.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/39 "2015-12-04T16:54:56Z")
I’m not a lawyer much less a constitutional expert. But I think a reasonable definition of “arms” as the term in used in the Constitution is “the kind of weapon an individual soldier might use”. So the constitutional right moves along with new technology. In 1789, it covered muskets. In 2015, it covers handguns and rifles. If it had existed in 1500, it would have covered longbows and swords and in 2200, it might cover phasers.
The other part of this standard is the difference between a weapon used by an individual and a weapon used by a unit of men. A single person can use a rifle or a handgun but it takes a group of people to operate artillery or a tank or a fighter jet or a destroyer or a nuclear weapon. So giving people the right to operate these weapons would mean giving people the right to form private military forces. And the Constitution doesn’t give any right to form private armies.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-bear-arms/739396/40 "2015-12-04T16:55:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> So you are saying that we have as much need, and right, to high capacity weaponry as we do high performance sports cars?
Not to answer for him, but my response would be that what I need is none of your business. Our constitutional rights don’t get parceled out based on your view of how much of them I need.
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