# Right-to-Lifers: How Does Miscarriage Fit In? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574 "2004-03-26T14:58:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/1 "2004-03-26T14:58:12Z")
I often wonder what right-to-lifers think about miscarriages. People act as if life, and all its splendor, shines down upon all of us equally. We act is if everything is guaranteed: life, liberty, happiness… But, you can be prince one day, and a pauper the next as the best laid plans of mice and men ofter go awry. Man proposes, and God disposes. Nothing, nothing is written in stone - except death and taxis. 😉 So, now how does miscarriage dovetail into your thinking? Ultimately, if abortion was made illegal, would mothers-to-be be accused of murder when a miscarriage occurs? I wonder just how ugly could this issue could get… - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/2 "2004-03-26T15:14:31Z")
Miscarriages are unfortunate deaths, to be prevented as necessary. There’s no reason that mothers who miscarry should be charged with murder; it’s pretty silly to suggest that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/3 "2004-03-26T15:15:51Z")
Miscarriage is, of course, a tragedy. It almost happened with us, when our twins were born prematurely. Thankfully, they came through it just fine. Our neighbors weren’t so lucky when they went into early labor. They had one twin make it, and the other one, sadly, died. I have many members of my family who have suffered miscarriages, as has my wife’s best friend, several times. For the record, I am pro-life. Why, I ask, is this so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/4 "2004-03-26T15:31:32Z")
You’re assuming that if a woman miscarries, she necessarily caused it. Miscarriages usually happen because there’s a defect with the fetus or something goes terribly wrong. Charging a woman with murder would be like saying someone committed suicide because they had a heart attack. Now, if a woman does something that causes a miscarriage or stillbirth (drug use, etc.), the laws now being put into effect could, as far as I can see, be used to prosecute her. Her in South Carolina, women have already been charged and convicted of murder for stillbirths caused by drug use. (FWIW, I’m pro-choice and find the above a travesty.) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/5 "2004-03-26T15:52:06Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > So, now how does miscarriage dovetail into your thinking? Ultimately, if abortion was made illegal, would mothers-to-be be accused of murder when a miscarriage occurs? I wonder just how ugly could this issue could get… - Jinx Of course not. Very few healthy fetuses are lost to miscarriage. Usually the poor thing is so defective that it wouldn’t live even if it continued to develop; as tragic as it is, it’s probably kinder to it and its parents than if it were born, suffered a while, _then_ died. It’s sad that a baby is lost through miscarriage, but it’s not as though either parent did something to cause it to be defective - unless she did drugs or drank. In that case the only way I can see charging a woman with some crime is only it can be proven she knew she was pregnant at the time she used/drank. But then there’s the case where a woman’s organs are as such that she can’t carry a baby to term. What do you think, **Jinx** , should the lost baby’s grandparents be charged with something then, given it’s their genes that gave the mother imperfect organs? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/6 "2004-03-26T15:57:37Z")
> [@C3](#): > > You’re assuming that if a woman miscarries, she necessarily caused it. Miscarriages usually happen because there’s a defect with the fetus or something goes terribly wrong. Charging a woman with murder would be like saying someone committed suicide because they had a heart attack. > > Now, if a woman does something that causes a miscarriage or stillbirth (drug use, etc.), the laws now being put into effect could, as far as I can see, be used to prosecute her. Her in South Carolina, women have already been charged and convicted of murder for stillbirths caused by drug use. > > (FWIW, I’m pro-choice and find the above a travesty.) But that’s really the point of this debate. How will the government determine if the mother caused it? If you consider the death of a 1 year old, what would be involved? You mentioned obvious factors like drug abuse, but this implies that you know about the potential mother’s life. You seem to agree that if the mother directly caused it she’s some form of murderer. There will now have to be an investigation into ALL miscarriages the way there is an investigation into all deaths. The mother would then have to account for her entire actions during the months leading up to the event. There was a really interesting thread about this recently, let me see if I can find it. But to sum up: C3, I’d like you to propose a procedure for the police and DA to deal with misscariages assuming that you start without any knowledge of the mother; someone simply called Crime Stoppers and claimed they knew a women who used to be pregnant. It helps if you start by assuming they’re all drug users. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/7 "2004-03-26T16:20:03Z")
This post really cracked me up and pretty much says it all with regard to protecting the fetus. I was in response to commends made after that woman refused a C-section in this thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244594&highlight=c-section). Try not to take it out of context. > [@Master Wang-Ka](#): > > Y’know, I don’t think I like the idea of defining what a pregnant woman may or may not do. > > I much prefer the idea of saying “The government and the courts have NO power except what we specifically give them.” Oh, wait, it already works that way, doesn’t it? > > If a crack whore does lots of dope, gets VD, and falls down stairs, I can think of lots of things to bust her for. The idea of busting her for “fetus abuse” strikes me as way wrong. > > It seems to me that when we regard a fetus’ rights as taking any precedence over a woman’s rights, we have set the stage for slavery of one kind or another. I mean, when we can arrest a woman for refusing SURGERY, for potato’s sake, why can’t we simply imprison all pregnant women? I mean, preventative detention? > > We could simply impound their bodies in medical internment centers where everything they do, eat, drink, and breathe can be carefully monitored. None of this cigarettes-and-whisky nonsense. Nice, fresh veggies, vitamins, regular prenatal care by qualified medical practitioners… > > …and none of this stupid, wasteful, destructive FREEDOM crap. After all, those fetuses have RIGHTS, damn you! > > Sound stupid? Well, yes. But it’s the logical end result of this line of thinking. > > …hey, wait a minute. What am I complaining about? I’m a GUY! I wouldn’t be subject to losing my freedom! In fact, the establishment of female internment centers would create JOBS! Stimulate the economy! After all, all those jobs being lost by pregnant women would have to be filled by someone… and as long as we keep the Republicans in charge, taxes wouldn’t go up, no matter how expensive these internment centers were to build and maintain… and, of course, someone would have to be hired to guard all those pregnant women, to keep them from stupidly and self-destructedly smoking, drinking, gardening, working out, and other potentially harmful-to-their-unborn-children actions… > > …dang, maybe I DO wanna vote Bush in November… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/8 "2004-03-26T18:30:33Z")
Well, exactly what are we discussing here? Can we frame the debate a little better? Are we talking about the tragedy of accidental miscarriage? Or are we talking about negligence on the part of the mother, leading to fetal death? Case in point would be the woman who let one of her twins die by refusing a C-section. Alternatively, we can discuss the new law passed, making it a crime to kill an unborn child in the course of committing another crime, a la Laci Peterson. These cases are much in the news lately, and we could devote whole threads to each one. Indeed, people already have. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/9 "2004-03-26T20:33:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > But that’s really the point of this debate. How will the government determine if the mother caused it? If you consider the death of a 1 year old, what would be involved? You mentioned obvious factors like drug abuse, but this implies that you know about the potential mother’s life. **You seem to agree that if the mother directly caused it she’s some form of murderer.** There will now have to be an investigation into ALL miscarriages the way there is an investigation into all deaths. The mother would then have to account for her entire actions during the months leading up to the event. There was a really interesting thread about this recently, let me see if I can find it. > > But to sum up: C3, I’d like you to propose a procedure for the police and DA to deal with misscariages assuming that you start without any knowledge of the mother; someone simply called Crime Stoppers and claimed they knew a women who used to be pregnant. It helps if you start by assuming they’re all drug users. (my bolding) Um, no, I don’t seem to agree that if the mother directly caused it she’s some form of murderer. If you had read my whole post, you would see that I said that I’m pro-choice and I believe cases where mothers are charged with murder for the stillbirths of their children are travesties. In my post, I was simply pointing out that not all miscarriages are the fault of the mother (which is the premise that the OP seemed to be basing his argument); regardless, mother’s are already being prosecuted and convicted. Because of the reasons you cited, and because I don’t believe that fetuses should be granted the same protections as born humans, I don’t agree that this should be the case. But, it seems that in many of these threads, there is the idea that if we don’t stop these laws, we’ll be sliding down the slippery slope and the next thing you know, mothers will be prosecuted for stillbirths. Well, they already are. We’ve already slid down the slippery slope. The most covered case in South Carolina (because I think it was the first, although there have now been hundreds of women caught up in this) is that of [Regina McKnight](http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1007/p02s01-usju.html) I linked to this article in the c-section thread, too. Please, if you’re interested in this subject, please read this. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/10 "2004-03-26T20:36:54Z")
Damn, please delete that pesky apostrophe in “mother’s”. I saw it just as I hit submit. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/11 "2004-03-27T02:00:31Z")
Since a miscarriage is technically defined as a “spontaneous abortion due to _natural_ causes”, I wouldn’t think that it would be legally possible to legislate against miscarriages, or to punish women for something that was “natural”. [http://health.allrefer.com/health/abortion-spontaneous-info.html](http://health.allrefer.com/health/abortion-spontaneous-info.html) There are a whole host of substances, both legal and illegal, that when used during pregnancy can cause a miscarriage (some because they’re directly toxic, and some because they cause birth defects which cause the defective fetus to naturally abort), but you would have to prove that the substance had caused it, that it hadn’t happened “naturally”. I don’t have any idea how you would prove, for example, that a woman who miscarried, and who turned out to have high levels of lead in her body, had miscarried _because_ of her high lead levels. [http://www.infertilitytutorials.com/miscarriage\_members/misc.cfm](http://www.infertilitytutorials.com/miscarriage_members/misc.cfm) And things like stress can reportedly cause miscarriages. How would you prosecute a woman for “having such a stressful life that she miscarried”? > **[WebMD - Better information. Better health.](https://www.webmd.com)** > > The leading source for trustworthy and timely health and medical news and information. Providing credible health information, supportive community, and educational services by blending award-winning expertise in content, community services, expert... Low folate can apparently cause miscarriages. Are you going to prosecute a woman for not taking her prenatal vitamins? > **[WebMD - Better information. Better health.](https://www.webmd.com)** > > The leading source for trustworthy and timely health and medical news and information. Providing credible health information, supportive community, and educational services by blending award-winning expertise in content, community services, expert... And of course smoking is strongly linked with miscarriages, but how are you going to prove that the pregnant smoker’s miscarriage was caused by her smoking? > **[Miscarriage-Who’s Affected?](http://www.womens-health.co.uk/category/pregnancy-loss/emotions-miscarriage/)** > > Everyone Hurts When A Baby Is Lost When miscarriage occurs there is no easy way to handle the pain. Loss ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/12 "2004-03-27T02:36:09Z")
I got the impression that the OP was wondering whether, in a version of America whose laws are pro-life, there would be laws in place to investigate miscarriages as possible murder cases to **determine** whether the crime of killing a fetus had taken place. Sorry if I’m wrong about this, or if I missed a clarification earlier… ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/13 "2004-03-27T02:50:20Z")
That’d be giving the fetus more rights than a human is already entitled to. Let me explain. As it stands, the C-section lady case actually gave the fetus MORE rights than a human is entitled to. Nobody’s forced to undergo involuntary medical treatment for the sake of others. If I had an extremely rare blood type, and someone with that blood type needed a kidney, it’s legally within my rights to say “No, I’ll keep my kidneys, kthx.” Yet this lady was arrested for refusing to do life-saving treatment for another person. Likewise, you can say that your own workplace stresses indirectly caused your angsty 16-year-old to kill himself. Or feeding your kids McDonald’s meals caused him to have Type II diabetes at age 30 and caused him to go blind. Or secondhand smoke caused him to have asthma and he dies at 8 of an asthma attack. I don’t view stuff like drinking alcohol, eating the wrong foods, smoking, being stressed, etc., to be abuse since the fetus is only an _indirect_ victim. Unless the lady did something really screwy directly to her own fetus, such as injecting it with alcohol directly, all of the situations you postulate would be giving a fetus even more rights than a human child. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/14 "2004-03-27T03:32:38Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > Unless the lady did something really screwy directly to her own fetus, such as injecting it with alcohol directly, all of the situations you postulate would be giving a fetus even more rights than a human child. How does this fit in to the Regina McKnight case (and South Carolina law)? Regina McKnight used cocaine while pregnant and, as a result, her baby was stillborn. She did not inject the fetus with cocaine. She is now serving a prison sentence. This is ALREADY HAPPENING! Women are already being prosecuted (and convicted) for their babies dying in utero. This is no longer a hypothetical argument. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/15 "2004-03-27T03:43:01Z")
> [@C3](#): > > This is ALREADY HAPPENING! Women are already being prosecuted (and convicted) for their babies dying in utero. This is no longer a hypothetical argument. I know it’s happening–and I referred to the C-section lady as an example of this. It’s idiotic, especially in the light of the fact that abortion is legal. Makes no sense at all, no consistency in there. Just giving my perspective on how not persecuting actions a pregnant woman does that causes her fetus to die/be injured in utero wouldn’t necessarily conflict with a pro-life stance. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/16 "2004-03-27T03:53:08Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > Just giving my perspective on how not persecuting actions a pregnant woman does that causes her fetus to die/be injured in utero wouldn’t necessarily conflict with a pro-life stance. Got it. That’s a good stance to take (from my perspective). It seems like we’re all on the same page in this thread so far. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/17 "2004-03-27T04:17:44Z")
> [@C3](#): > > Got it. That’s a good stance to take (from my perspective). It seems like we’re all on the same page in this thread so far. Thanks. Gotta love SDMB–try having this debate on [Fark.com](http://Fark.com), FR, or DU… :o) ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/18 "2004-03-27T04:18:54Z")
Agggh, the MB translated my smiley-with-a-nose to a yawn again. Oh, well. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/19 "2004-03-27T22:28:50Z")
Originally posted by Jinx > [@](#): > > - except death and taxis. Ahhh yes death and TAXIS. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574/20 "2004-03-28T01:08:04Z")
Truly not a legal issue at all (unless it was somehow intentional), it is a loss of a life due to natural causes, like a heart attack. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-how-does-miscarriage-fit-in/236574.md?page=2)