# Right-to-lifers, Schiavo, and the impact **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233 "2005-03-18T23:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/1 "2005-03-18T23:33:21Z")
One of the things that I’ve noticed in conversations with friends and family about the Terri Schiavo case is how many people are newly aware of their need to put their wishes down in writing. A couple of the legislative moves were attempts to make it so that Michael Schiavo could have no say (so much for the institution of marriage) about Terri’s wishes unless she had something in writing. So let’s say that some people take heed of this case and clearly define their wishes in writing. Isn’t this the opposite of what the Right-to-Life advocates really want? They want to win the Shiavo battle, but is it at the expense of losing the war? Granted, lots of people will talk about what they’re going to do without actually doing it, but do those opposed to Terri’s physical death really want there to be a movement toward Living Wills and other evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/2 "2005-03-19T00:02:07Z")
The interesting thing about this case is that the position of most of the opponents of letting nature take its course basically are making the argument that it doesn’t matter what her wishes would have been. Many pundits don’t even mention it, or if they do, they sneer about her husband making it all up to, apparently, become a multi-millionaire somehow. But they are making the case that such a person should be maintained period, not that just they should be maintained because her wishes weren’t down in writing. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/3 "2005-03-19T00:36:11Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > The interesting thing about this case is that the position of most of the opponents of letting nature take its course basically are making the argument that it doesn’t matter what her wishes would have been. That’s my point. The Right-to-Life people don’t care what her wishes would have been. But the legislatures were trying to push through laws that would keep Terri alive because of the lack of documentation, but wouldn’t keep, say, me alive if I had such documentation. And the fuss over the case seems to be increasing people’s awareness of such documentation. So could the end result be that fewer people would be kept alive through ignorance of their wishes? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/4 "2005-03-19T00:44:22Z")
You seem to forget these people lie, and that they’re not strategic idiots. They chip away at the problem bit by bit. Today, you need a signed and notarized document; tomorrow the Booming Voice of the Almighty. Think ahead; the current efforts are just part of the process. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/5 "2005-03-19T02:58:44Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > They chip away at the problem bit by bit. Today, you need a signed and notarized document; tomorrow the Booming Voice of the Almighty. Think ahead; the current efforts are just part of the process. Okay, but in the space between major battles, won’t a lot of people slip through their fingers? Is the publicity of this case going to energize some segment of the population into putting their wishes on paper, thereby freeing their loved ones from doubt? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/6 "2005-03-19T03:16:39Z")
Has there been any movement supporting taking Terri Schiavo off life support on religious grounds? I don’t want to seem flippant, but I could imagine someone with sincere religious beliefs arguing that it was God’s will that Schiavo die in 1990 and that people have been thwarting that will for the last fifteen years. ---
**Author:** ![JasonFin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4af34b/32.png) [@JasonFin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JasonFin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/7 "2005-03-19T03:32:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay, but in the space between major battles, won’t a lot of people slip through their fingers? Is the publicity of this case going to energize some segment of the population into putting their wishes on paper, thereby freeing their loved ones from doubt? I suspect you may be assuming that a law which makes it more difficult to take someone off life support without written permission will also make it easier to take someone off life support _with_ written permission. That’s unlikely to be the case here. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/8 "2005-03-19T03:40:39Z")
> [@JasonFin](#): > > I suspect you may be assuming that a law which makes it more difficult to take someone off life support without written permission will also make it easier to take someone off life support _with_ written permission. That’s unlikely to be the case here. I may be assuming that a little. But more, I’m assuming that some of the people who are paying attention to this case are writing their wishes down, and that some decisions will, in future, be based on those written instructions and conversations with loved ones. I guess I’m assuming that most people aren’t as crazy as I believe the Schindlers to be, and most people are interested in what their loved ones would have wanted. More discussion leads to more DNRs, more plug pulling, fewer extreme measures. Maybe? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/9 "2005-03-19T03:43:30Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Has there been any movement supporting taking Terri Schiavo off life support on religious grounds? I don’t want to seem flippant, but I could imagine someone with sincere religious beliefs arguing that it was God’s will that Schiavo die in 1990 and that people have been thwarting that will for the last fifteen years. It would seem possible, but I haven’t run across that argument. Of course, those faiths that are against medical intervention would certainly say so. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/10 "2005-03-19T04:07:25Z")
From my experience you haven’t seen that because the people who say it aren’t as shrill and loud as the Schindlers’ supporters. A poll of the quiet people of my church would find almost universal support for Michael. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/11 "2005-03-19T04:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > A poll of the quiet people of my church would find almost universal support for Michael. I’m not talking about people who think people have a right to die if they want or people who think the courts should stay out of family affairs (although both are reasonable arguments for people to make). I’m wondering if there are any people who are basically arguing a “duty to die” idea - that when God decides it’s time for you to go, you shouldn’t resist by artificial means. ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/12 "2005-03-19T06:10:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay, but in the space between major battles, won’t a lot of people slip through their fingers? Is the publicity of this case going to energize some segment of the population into putting their wishes on paper, thereby freeing their loved ones from doubt? Yes, cases liked this have convinced me to do so. ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/13 "2005-03-19T06:31:19Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’m not talking about people who think people have a right to die if they want or people who think the courts should stay out of family affairs (although both are reasonable arguments for people to make). I’m wondering if there are any people who are basically arguing a “duty to die” idea - that when God decides it’s time for you to go, you shouldn’t resist by artificial means. I am not aware of any accepted organized christian group that believes people have “a duty to die” under any circumstances. There could be groups like christian scientists may feel that being kept on life support is wrong by their beliefs, but it isn’t because they feel the wife must die. It would be on grounds of using artifical means/ modern medicine. This is a distinction, because their tenets tell them that modern medicine does not actually do anything and that any positive results are merely psychological. Therefore, she is alive because god wants her alive, not as a result of medicine. ---
**Author:** ![partyx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7feea3/32.png) [@partyx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partyx2)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/14 "2005-03-19T07:12:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > One of the things that I’ve noticed in conversations with friends and family about the Terri Schiavo case is how many people are newly aware of their need to put their wishes down in writing. A couple of the legislative moves were attempts to make it so that Michael Schiavo could have no say (so much for the institution of marriage) about Terri’s wishes unless she had something in writing. > > So let’s say that some people take heed of this case and clearly define their wishes in writing. Isn’t this the opposite of what the Right-to-Life advocates really want? They want to win the Shiavo battle, but is it at the expense of losing the war? > > Granted, lots of people will talk about what they’re going to do without actually doing it, but do those opposed to Terri’s physical death really want there to be a movement toward Living Wills and other evidence? Tern would have left a living will if she wanted to die in the event she was incapicated. Why, you ask. It is because people who love life don’t think about death hence no living will. I for one have thought about the possibilty of being handicapped and i have told my family i want to be unplugged if i am in a smillar state. I have been through a lot and know anything can ahppen at anytime. People who think about the possibilties of these circumstances write living wills. That is because they think about the own mortality and have decided that they don’t want to exsist in a mentally or physcally degraded state. Tern cared about her life so much that this thought never crossed her mind thats why she never wrote a living will or agreed to a power of attorney ---
**Author:** ![lorinada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5e925/32.png) [@lorinada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorinada)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/15 "2005-03-19T08:32:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It would seem possible, but I haven’t run across that argument. Of course, those faiths that are against medical intervention would certainly say so. Actually, that’s my stance, even though I am not overly religious, not conservative in my spirituality, and not against medical intervention. I know it doesn’t seem like those all jive, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts, I DO feel like the playing God went on all those many years ago when her death was artificially prolonged; not now that she’s finally being allowed that death. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/16 "2005-03-19T15:58:35Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’m not talking about people who think people have a right to die if they want or people who think the courts should stay out of family affairs (although both are reasonable arguments for people to make). I’m wondering if there are any people who are basically arguing a “duty to die” idea - that when God decides it’s time for you to go, you shouldn’t resist by artificial means. I believe that if God decides that it’s time for you to go, artificial means will be of no help. We are talking about an omnipotent God, aren’t we? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/17 "2005-03-19T16:36:01Z")
> [@partyx2](#): > > Tern would have left a living will if she wanted to die in the event she was incapicated. Why, you ask. It is because people who love life don’t think about death hence no living will. I don’t have a living will. I would want to die in the event I became persistently vegetative. Your argument has just been refuted. Got another? ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/18 "2005-03-20T12:51:02Z")
> [@partyx2](#): > > Tern would have left a living will if she wanted to die in the event she was incapicated. Why, you ask. It is because people who love life don’t think about death hence no living will. It’s more like people in their 20s don’t expect to die, and so don’t get around to writing a will, living will, or buying life insurance. For many people the only impetus to writing a will is the death of their parents, or the birth of their children-- and even then it’s not enough. Consumer Reports indicates that 60% of people die without a will. 60%! ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/19 "2005-03-20T14:24:22Z")
> [@partyx2](#): > > Tern would have left a living will if she wanted to die in the event she was incapicated. Why, you ask. It is because people who love life don’t think about death hence no living will. I for one have thought about the possibilty of being handicapped and i have told my family i want to be unplugged if i am in a smillar state. I have been through a lot and know anything can ahppen at anytime. People who think about the possibilties of these circumstances write living wills. That is because they think about the own mortality and have decided that they don’t want to exsist in a mentally or physcally degraded state. Tern cared about her life so much that this thought never crossed her mind thats why she never wrote a living will or agreed to a power of attorney Where do you get the notion that “people who think about the possibilities of these circumstances” and “people who love/care about there lives” are mutually exclusive? They are not, they are independent variables, and this strikes a fatal blow to your argument. Also, how do you go to type TERRI and write TERN? I wouldn’t ask if you hadn’t have done it twice, or 100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![cj\_finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@cj\_finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cj_finn)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233/20 "2005-03-20T14:35:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t have a living will. I would want to die in the event I became persistently vegetative. Your argument has just been refuted. Got another? Since you don’t have a living will, you have pretty much supported the argument, not refuted it. If you really didn’t want to be kept alive in a persistently vegetative state, you would take the active step of having a living will, or better yet, a health care power of attorney, prepared and executed. One thing we all need to keep in mind is that if you are brought to the hospital in serious condition that requires heroic measures to maintain or ameliorate, you and/or the person accompanying you will be asked what you would want. If your wishes are not known at that moment - or more importantly, you, in your stressed and scared state, give some instructuctions that can be construed as meaning ‘take all steps to keep me alive’ - then you will be put in the position of being maintained by a machine. It is then that a Schiavo-like mess can occur. Your doctor will testify that you indicated that you wanted everything done, but your living will will indicate otherwise. God help you if you have family members that disagree strongly with your wishes as the Schindlers do with their daughter’s wishes as told by her husband. You not only need to get the living will - or better yet, health care power of attorney - prepared and executed, but you have to forward a copy to your doctor as well so that s/he will know what to do in the case of an emergency. cj [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-lifers-schiavo-and-the-impact/295233.md?page=2)