# Right to Open carry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535 "2018-07-25T02:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/261 "2018-08-01T12:35:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-court/u-s-appeals-court-constitution-gives-right-to-carry-gun-in-public-idUSKBN1KE28C](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-court/u-s-appeals-court-constitution-gives-right-to-carry-gun-in-public-idUSKBN1KE28C) The court rulled properly! > **[ARMED CITIZENS, CITIZEN ARMIES: TOWARD A JURISPRUDENCE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT](https://guncite.com/journals/hardcit.html)** > > Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy; Armed Citizens, Citizen Armies: Toward a Jurisprudence of the Second Amendment, by David T. Hardy ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/262 "2018-08-01T12:54:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We are all part of the militia. Are we well-regulated, IYHO? If not, how is that to be done? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/263 "2018-08-01T12:56:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As fundamental as a Right to free speech and a free press. > > So are the words “the people”. > > Again, we are _all_ the militia. Don’t forget “well regulated” people. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/264 "2018-08-01T12:59:50Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How can someone look at the Constitution and find a right to abortion or same sex marriage, yet see a clause which clearly, right in the words of it, declare a right to keep and bear arms, but hand waive it away? How can someone read the express purpose of part of the Constitution, right in the words of it, and handwave it away? :dubious: Abortion rights follow from due process, and same sex marriage from equal protection, both of which are constitutional rights, since you’re puzzled about it. ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/265 "2018-08-01T14:39:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Don’t forget “well regulated” people. “well-regulated militia; for to bear arms implies something more than mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them in a way that makes those who keep them ready for their efficient use; in other words, it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in doing so the laws of public order” "The Second Amendment’s introductory clause, relating to a well-regulated militia, is not by its express terms a limitation or restriction of the right recognized in the following clause. It is, at best, an explanation of the partial motivation for creating such a right and not a statement of its outer boundaries. " > **[ARMED CITIZENS, CITIZEN ARMIES: TOWARD A JURISPRUDENCE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT](https://guncite.com/journals/hardcit.html)** > > Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy; Armed Citizens, Citizen Armies: Toward a Jurisprudence of the Second Amendment, by David T. Hardy ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/266 "2018-08-01T14:41:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are we well-regulated, IYHO? If not, how is that to be done? “well-regulated militia; for to bear arms implies something more than mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them in a way that makes those who keep them ready for their efficient use; in other words, it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in doing so the laws of public order” > **[ARMED CITIZENS, CITIZEN ARMIES: TOWARD A JURISPRUDENCE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT](https://guncite.com/journals/hardcit.html)** > > Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy; Armed Citizens, Citizen Armies: Toward a Jurisprudence of the Second Amendment, by David T. Hardy ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/267 "2018-08-01T14:43:57Z")
> [@burrunderthe\_saddle](#): > > Wrong > Your attention is directed to: > French and Indian War > Bacon’s Rebellion > the Revolutionary war > the war of 1812 Fought when The Government mostly just had muskets too. > [@](#): > > The US civil war (the confederate army was essentially Armed citizenry) Yeah I’m sure the Southern citizenry of the time was packing Gatling guns, 12 pounders, armoured trains and ironclads :rolleyes:. Armed citizenry, c’mon. > [@](#): > > Irish War of Independence They lost that one. Ireland has yet to be united, in case you haven’t noticed. As for 1916-22 , its relative success _might_ have had something to do with the fact that the UK was somewhat busy fighting a world war at the time, then trying to recover from doing so. It’s those little details… But even then, the Easter Rising was obliterated in one week. The independence of the Republic of Ireland that followed had a lot more to do with politics than force of arms. > [@](#): > > The Mujahedin/afgan war with Russia They lost that one, even if the Russians eventually fucked off because they didn’t really want to be there in the first place and their troops didn’t give even a token shit. The casualties were 1:10 (and that’s strictly combatant casualties - civilian deaths are off the charts because, well, the Russians didn’t give even a symbolic shit about those). And yeah, Afghans can take those kinds of losses and keep coming back for more because they’re _mental_, and they’ve been mental for a very, very long time. Even Alexander the Great (well, Seleukos really - Alexander was just driving by) couldn’t get these ornery fucks to sit down, shut up and prosper. D’you reckon the same is true of e.g. Florida ? Florida Man notwithstanding ? > [@](#): > > Wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Chechnya, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kashmir, India, the Philippines, Indonesia, Sudan and Nigeria Guess what ? Most of these insurgencies were _crushed_. The Philippines were bloody colonized fer chrissakes. You don’t get to lose much worse than that. > [@](#): > > anti-crime uprisings in parts of rural Mexico Half the government, police and army are actively on crime’s team. That kinda helps. And if you’re talking about citizens playing vigilantes in their villages : let them try that in places where it actually matters. Let them try to take back important stuff like institutions, major cities or TJ, yanno - profitable stuff ; rather than just some dusty cropland in the outbacks that barely rates a racketeering scheme. See how well that’s going to work for 'em. > [@](#): > > Arab Spring > Tunisian Revolution And where would those have been without NATO air support, shellings, drones ? How’s it working out for the citizens of, say, Syria, who don’t really benefit from any of those ? > [@](#): > > The Mujahedin/Afgan war with US See above re:Afghans being mental. And it’s weird to me that you seem to have forgotten the ONE insurgency fought in large part by irregulars against an enemy that massively out-teched them that did work : Viet-Nam. But even there, the VC would have been mulched without Russian & Chinese support and the NVA. Also, in the case of the Arab spring, and Eastern Europe, and much of Africa, there’s the fact that those places are positively floating in surplus Soviet hardware from heavy machine guns to arty shells to anti-tank guns and RPGs to landmines - and their respective governments didn’t really pack much better. In Iraq not only does everyone own at least one AK, but half of the village have bazookas somewhere under the floorboards. Afghanistan is even worse, and the terrain is a nightmare. Compare and contrast with the rolling cornfields of Real 'Murika. But here’s the real kicker and counter-example : Palestine. There you have what it would _really_ be like. A bunch of hicks armed with pea-shooters and homemade rockets filled with flour and rusty nails getting curbstomped over and over and \*over \*by a high-tech modern army. Yeah, the Palestinians don’t give up - but I don’t think anybody in their right mind would ever dare say they’re in any danger of winning. Or preventing the Israelis from doing anything they bloody well like. Or achieving anything whatsoever, really. The idea that a bunch of survivalist yahoos with AR-15s and tricked-out tactilol hunting rifles would ever resist (nevermind repel) a real military operation by the government that spends more on its big dick military than the next five countries \*combined \*is laughable on its face. The _only_ thing that stood between, say, the Bundy crew and becoming a collection of greasy smears in 20 minutes flat is the PR aspect & rule of law (that they, themselves, flaunted). Which would be much lessened had they declared secession or started shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/268 "2018-08-01T14:50:44Z")
Oh, and speaking of big dick militaries, and since y’alls are being Constitutional scholars : do you guys know why the Powdered Wig Krew OGs deemed “a well regulated militia” to be “necessary to the security of a free state” in the first place ? Because they really, but \*really \*hated the idea of a professional standing army. And yet… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/269 "2018-08-01T14:54:11Z")
The standing army debate was a close call, and soon reversed; it’s wrong to say “they” really hated it. They even made jokes - Elbridge Gerry observed to that august body “A standing army is like a standing member. It’s an excellent assurance of domestic tranquility, but a dangerous temptation to foreign adventure.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/270 "2018-08-01T15:23:30Z")
Philosophical debates with dick jokes are the best. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/271 "2018-08-01T16:54:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > For the nth time “well regulated”. As in the government is explicitly given a grant to regulate rather than the current individual right crap (a militia is a collective) that requires a high bar of scrutiny when the government tries to pass a gun regulation. The current Militia follows all the regulations set down by Congress. Which are basically none. But that is the fault of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/272 "2018-08-01T17:00:29Z")
> [@burrunderthe\_saddle](#): > > The court rulled properly! > > [ARMED CITIZENS, CITIZEN ARMIES: TOWARD A JURISPRUDENCE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT](http://www.guncite.com/journals/hardcit.html) Nice cite. Here’s a section: - The first demand for an individual right to bear arms was advanced in a minority report from the Pennsylvania ratifying convention, which emphasized: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their own state, or the United States or, the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed or real danger of public injury from individuals …[217] The Pennsylvania delegates thus not only stressed the individual nature of the right they wanted recognized, but also made it clear that the right to “bear” arms extended to self-defense and even hunting.[218] They did not quite secure enough votes to condition Pennsylvania’s ratification upon such a call, but their report was circulated throughout the remaining states and was carefully studied by advocates of a bill of rights in the other conventions.[219] Madison, when drafting the Bill of Rights in the First Congress, worked from a reprint of state demands that was headed by the Pennsylvania report.[220] The movement for a bill of rights next surfaced in Massachusetts, where patriot leader Samuel Adams proposed a demand that included the statement: “[t]hat the said constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress … to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms …”[221] When New Hampshire gave the Constitution its needed ninth vote for ratification, it appended (p.604)a demand for a bill of rights to include the guarantee that “Congress shall never disarm any citizen except such as are or have been in actual rebellion.”[222] Three later conventions, while giving the right of arms-bearing first listing, attached a guarantee of militia status. Virginia proposed “that the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state.”[223] New York proposed the same with the minor modification that the militia was to be one “including the body of the people capable of bearing arms.”[224] North Carolina accompanied a refusal to ratify with a demand identical to Virginia’s.[225]\* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/273 "2018-08-01T17:02:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are we well-regulated, IYHO? If not, how is that to be done? Congress passed the Militia bill, and all the regulations they added on have been followed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/274 "2018-08-01T17:07:21Z")
But we’re \*all \*in it, you tell us. How are \*you \*well-regulated? Or maybe Congress \*did \*do their job, by creating the Guard. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/275 "2018-08-01T17:08:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But we’re \*all \*in it, you tell us. How are \*you \*well-regulated? Well, since I follow every militia regulation Congress has set forth, I suppose I am fully well regulated. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/276 "2018-08-01T17:12:08Z")
You don’t quite get how silly a claim that was, do you? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/277 "2018-08-01T17:36:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You don’t quite get how silly a claim that was, do you? What Militia Regulations do expect us to follow? You dont get how silly it is to pretend the National Guard is the only Militia, since Federal law states otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![burrunderthe\_saddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@burrunderthe\_saddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burrunderthe_saddle)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/278 "2018-08-01T17:45:00Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Armed citizenry pretty much get massacred when trying to face a professional army. **French and Indian War Bacon’s Rebellion the Revolutionary war the war of 1812** The professional armies lost even with superior arms and training. **The US civil war (the confederate army was essentially Armed citizenry)** The arms on hand at the beginning of the war came forward chiefly in the organizations of the men who first volunteered. These were equipped, as far as possible, by the States from which the regiments came. In response to a call for private arms, many thousand shotguns and old sporting-rifles were turned in, and served, to some extent, to satisfy the impatience of men eager to take the field until better provision could be made for them, or they provided for themselves on some of the battlefields in the early part of the war. [http://civilwarhome.com/confederateordnance.html](http://civilwarhome.com/confederateordnance.html) \*\* Wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Chechnya, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kashmir, India, the Philippines, Indonesia, Sudan and Nigeria\*\* > [@Kobal2](#): > > Most of these insurgencies were _crushed_. Even you cannot accept that some of the insurgencies were not crushed. My point is do not generalize. Generalization does not move the debate forward. **Irish War of Independence** Are not a good many wars ultimately settled at the negotiating table under political pressure. **Tunisian Revolution** NATO did not participate in fact As one of the powerful actors in shaping the global political and economic order, the US support (Obama) for the Ben Ali regime, despite having full knowledge of the ongoing corruption, human rights abuses and power misuse contradicts its commitment to the value of democracy and human right protection. [https://www.ukessays.com/essays/politics/international-actors-in-the-tunisian-revolution-politics-essay.php](https://www.ukessays.com/essays/politics/international-actors-in-the-tunisian-revolution-politics-essay.php) **Arab Spring** Egypt Armed citizenry began the uprising and was later joined by the military. The uprising was successful but Egypt is now fractured and an ultimate reolustion has not been reached. > [@Kobal2](#): > > And it’s weird to me that you seem to have forgotten the ONE insurgency fought in large part by irregulars against an enemy that massively out-teched them that did work : VietNam. But even there, the VC would have been mulched without Russian & Chinese support and the NVA. The vietnam war during the French occupation can be said to an Armed citizenry against a professional army. However, the US was fighting the Vietcong a well trained and supplied army. The US lost because of political restrictions placed on it by POTUS Johnson. The US could not attack theHo Chi Minh traill in Cambodia. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/279 "2018-08-01T18:02:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You dont get how silly it is to pretend the National Guard is the only Militia, since Federal law states otherwise. Anybody who isn’t in the Guard is in the “unorganized militia” under law - whatever the hell that is, it sure ain’t well-regulated. Nor, obviously, is it intended to be, since only the real militia, legally the Guard, would ever be called upon to actually do anything. Call the law silly if you like, but you can’t say it isn’t the law. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/280 "2018-08-01T18:20:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Anybody who isn’t in the Guard is in the “unorganized militia” under law - whatever the hell that is, it sure ain’t well-regulated. Nor, obviously, is it intended to be, since only the real militia, legally the Guard, would ever be called upon to actually do anything. Call the law silly if you like, but you can’t say it isn’t the law. The amendment simply does not have that limitation on it. It does not say that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, PROVIDED, that the person is a member of a militia that the federal government deems to be well regulated. Such a construction would be the exact opposite of the intent of the amendment (even if we assume only a militia purpose) because it would permit the federal government to disarm the militia. It is clear that (at minimum) the amendment preserves the right of the people to keep and bear arms so that they can train with their weapons to become well regulated and to form a militia. It’s not a condition precedent because the people cannot be well regulated without having access to arms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535.md?page=15)