# Right to Open carry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535 "2018-07-25T02:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/21 "2018-07-25T16:04:31Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The absurdly high gun death total is going to continue to rise because we have a society permeated with guns. Do you have a cite that gun death totals are rising? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/22 "2018-07-25T16:16:35Z")
The home front: [\*\*So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. \*\*](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604) > [@](#): > > According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq. > > Source: Politifact. > > Total number of guns: No official figure exists but there are thought to be about 300 million in the US, held by about a third of the population. That is nearly enough guns for every man, woman and child in the country. I’m going to go out on a limb here and postulate that the amazing number of guns in our society has something vaguely to do with the amazing number of shootings/woundings/deaths in this country. Yeah, I know, silly me. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/23 "2018-07-25T16:27:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Violent crime is down _practically everywhere_. That’s true. And I am not saying that the increase in Open or concealed carry was a major part. But it certainly didnt _increase_ the murder rate as **DavidwithanR** sez. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/24 "2018-07-25T16:29:36Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The home front: [\*\*So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. \*\*](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604) > > I’m going to go out on a limb here and postulate that the amazing number of guns in our society has something vaguely to do with the amazing number of shootings/woundings/deaths in this country. > > Yeah, I know, silly me. Sure. Gun culture is part of the USA. But that isnt what he asked, he asked "Do you have a cite that gun death totals are rising? ". Because, you know, despite your statement that they are- they are not. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/25 "2018-07-25T16:30:37Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The home front: [\*\*So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. \*\*](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604) > > I’m going to go out on a limb here and postulate that the amazing number of guns in our society has something vaguely to do with the amazing number of shootings/woundings/deaths in this country. > > Yeah, I know, silly me. Your link doesn’t actually back up what you were asked for. If you look at the chart at the bottom (which is actually talking about gun deaths verse terrorism but is useful for part of what you were asked) you will see that gun deaths are lower (in 2016 at least) than they were just a few years before. And if you look over time you’ll see that they are much less today than they were in, say, the 70’s or 80’s or 90’s. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/26 "2018-07-25T16:32:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I can show you four Justices. So…a ‘large number’ is 4 then? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/27 "2018-07-25T16:45:02Z")
Related: GOULD V. MORGAN which is another carry case is being argued today in the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals. Hopefully they read the news. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/28 "2018-07-25T16:55:03Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The home front: [\*\*So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. \*\*](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604) > > I’m going to go out on a limb here and postulate that the amazing number of guns in our society has something vaguely to do with the amazing number of shootings/woundings/deaths in this country. > > Yeah, I know, silly me. A lot of people were shot and killed when it was relatively difficult to get and carry arms legally? I don’t think gun rights advocates would dispute this. Btw your war death total belies a nativist impulse to ignore enemy combatant and civilian deaths. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/29 "2018-07-25T17:08:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > A lot of people were shot and killed when it was relatively difficult to get and carry arms legally? I don’t think gun rights advocates would dispute this. > > Btw your war death total belies a nativist impulse to ignore enemy combatant and civilian deaths. I think it’s more geared towards the British audience (since it was a BBC article), where they almost certainly think this stat means something different than my own take away. When I saw it I got curious, so looked up total US combat deaths for it’s entire history and was a bit shocked…at how low it actually is. For much of our military history you could count the number of deaths from ‘war’ in the 10’s or 100’s…hell, even the Revolutionary war we are talking a few thousand deaths (about 25k total). The big ones for the US were the Civil war, WWII and WWI (with Korea and Vietnam being about the same). If anyone is interested in this side topic, here is where I’m looking ([)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/30 "2018-07-25T17:50:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … John Lott … That’s all I needed to see. You should be embarrassed to be citing that fraud and tool of the gun lobby. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Violent crime is down _practically everywhere_. Don’t confuse him with facts when he’s on a roll, quoting John Lott and all. > [@Flyer](#): > > Being able to legally carry a weapon is a “right to NOT get murdered” law. The perspective actually has a great deal to do with which end of the gun you’re facing. When lots of people have guns, you have a high probability of facing the wrong end. This is, in a nutshell, the story of guns in America. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Given Heller and McDonald, which hold that to “keep and bear arms” is an individual right unrelated to militia service and incorporated against the states, it would take a severely activist judge to hold that a state could prohibit all types of carry to a typical law abiding citizen. It would almost be like saying, “Sure it says you have to be 35 to be President, but we think it says 45.” Activism is generally associated with creative interpretations of the constitution, not with overturning asinine prior rulings. Activism is exactly what Scalia was practicing when he decreed that the “well regulated militia” preface was just decoration that could be ignored, apparently just thrown in there to make it sound more poetic instead of acknowledging it as a key phrase that spelled out the very purpose of the Amendment. > [@XT](#): > > I don’t know if a universal right to open carry is a good idea or not (I’m still thinking through the ramifications), but this sort of ridiculous hyperbole is just stupid. Even if you had universal open or concealed carry it’s not a ‘right-to-murder’, since one of the things you learn about when you get your carry conceal license is all of the really bad shit that can and will happen to you if you actually use that gun, especially if you do so when you shouldn’t. Far from being a ‘right-to-murder’, it actually shows someone who goes through it (instead of some ignorant dude on a message board) how much additional legal headache it is to the person choosing to carry a weapon. I’m sure that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman would have had different opinions about that, along with thousands of others who have been in similar positions, especially in so-called “stand your ground” states. > [@XT](#): > > So…a ‘large number’ is 4 then? Yes, very large as a percentage of the Supreme Court, since it makes up, without exception, the unanimous view of the entire progressive membership. Outside the Supreme Court, I base my comments on the amount of written commentary I’ve seen, none of which is immediately at my fingertips, and I’m not going to spend some indeterminate part of my life constructing a bibliography for you. I’m particularly not motivated to do this since experience shows that nothing that is said, presented, cited, or otherwise proven is going to change the views of the zealous gun advocate. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > A lot of people were shot and killed when it was relatively difficult to get and carry arms legally? I don’t think gun rights advocates would dispute this. I would dispute that it was ever “relatively difficult” to get guns legally in the USA, if you apply the relative standards of the rest of the civilized world. What’s particularly pissing me off right now is the completely expected and unsurprising discovery that the illegal gun used in the recent tragic shooting in Toronto was smuggled in from the US, where it’s readily available. This is not an isolated occurrence but an epidemic problem. Such is the proliferation of guns in the US that it’s not just a national domestic problem, it’s the epicenter of the gun problem in the entire continent, and beyond. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/31 "2018-07-25T18:08:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’m sure that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman would have had different opinions about that, along with thousands of others who have been in similar positions, especially in so-called “stand your ground” states. Perhaps their definition (and your own) is different than mine on what a ‘right’ actually is then. > [@](#): > > Yes, very large as a percentage of the Supreme Court, since it makes up, without exception, the unanimous view of the entire progressive membership. Outside the Supreme Court, I base my comments on the amount of written commentary I’ve seen, none of which is immediately at my fingertips, and I’m not going to spend some indeterminate part of my life constructing a bibliography for you. I’m particularly not motivated to do this since experience shows that nothing that is said, presented, cited, or otherwise proven is going to change the views of the zealous gun advocate. Look, if you don’t have anything to backup what you claimed, simply say that. Don’t try a lame ass deflection by trying to paint me as a ‘zealous gun advocate’ who can’t be reasoned with, so you can’t be bothered to backup your claim. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/32 "2018-07-25T18:14:04Z")
> [@laurieb](#): > > Live peacefully, for goodness sakes…maybe it’s because I’m from Germany that I think this way. Damn, I’m glad I put my drink down before reading this! ---
**Author:** ![Profound\_Gibberish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Profound\_Gibberish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profound_Gibberish)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/33 "2018-07-25T18:17:07Z")
Open Carry loudly proclaims to all who see you: I HAVE A VERY TINY PENIS! and I AM INCREDIBLY INSECURE ABOUT IT! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/34 "2018-07-25T18:29:57Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That’s all I needed to see. You should be embarrassed to be citing that fraud and tool of the gun lobby. > > The perspective actually has a great deal to do with which end of the gun you’re facing. When lots of people have guns, you have a high probability of facing the wrong end. This is, in a nutshell, the story of guns in America. > > Yes, very large as a percentage of the Supreme Court, since it makes up, without exception, the unanimous view of the entire progressive membership. Outside the Supreme Court, I base my comments on the amount of written commentary I’ve seen, none of which is immediately at my fingertips, and I’m not going to spend some indeterminate part of my life constructing a bibliography for you. I’m particularly not motivated to do this since experience shows that nothing that is said, presented, cited, or otherwise proven is going to change the views of the zealous gun advocate. Well, the idea that Lott was funding by the Gun Lobby has been debunked. Sure Lott is pro-gun, but he and David Mustard are degreed University of Chicago economists. I notice you have no counter-cite. That is nice but it doesnt seem to be true. So, you made a statement but can’t and wont back it up. Nice. And you call _my_ cite a “fraud”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/35 "2018-07-25T18:33:09Z")
How about a grand compromise? Let states decide gun laws and let states decide abortion laws. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/36 "2018-07-25T18:40:20Z")
> [@Profound\_Gibberish](#): > > Open Carry loudly proclaims to all who see you: > > I HAVE A VERY TINY PENIS! > > and > > I AM INCREDIBLY INSECURE ABOUT IT! Mrs. **dba fredericka** and her gynecologist dispute this. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/37 "2018-07-25T19:50:14Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Damn, I’m glad I put my drink down before reading this! Yeah, that’s off the scale irony. I was thinking about that in terms of what Jasmine posted wrt 1.2 million gun deaths between 1968 and 2011. We are just pikers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/38 "2018-07-25T19:56:52Z")
> [@laurieb](#): > > I will never understand why anyone would support open-carry. > > Live peacefully, for goodness sakes…maybe it’s because I’m from Germany that I think this way. You know who else wanted to live piece-fully?..😛 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/39 "2018-07-25T23:20:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I don’t know if a universal right to open carry is a good idea or not (I’m still thinking through the ramifications), but this sort of ridiculous hyperbole is just stupid. Even if you had universal open or concealed carry it’s not a ‘right-to-murder’, since one of the things you learn about when you get your carry conceal license is all of the really bad shit that can and will happen to you if you actually use that gun, especially if you do so when you shouldn’t. Far from being a ‘right-to-murder’, it actually shows someone who goes through it (instead of some ignorant dude on a message board) how much additional legal headache it is to the person choosing to carry a weapon. > > Perhaps do some research on a subject before spouting off non-sense like this in the future. So if I’m understanding you correctly, the process of getting a concealed carry license forces you to receive training and information that is important in educating people not to go around murdering people…so letting people pack heat around without such a license or training clearly is going to result in an increase, not a drop, in armed people who have had such education. Right? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535/40 "2018-07-26T00:04:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So if I’m understanding you correctly, the process of getting a concealed carry license forces you to receive training and information that is important in educating people not to go around murdering people…so letting people pack heat around without such a license or training clearly is going to result in an increase, not a drop, in armed people who have had such education. Right? Wrong. But then you knew that before you asked, so it was just an exercise in you attempting to score points, not a real question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/right-to-open-carry/818535.md?page=3)