# Rights of Children to Life\>Religious Freedom **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788 "2010-10-01T23:18:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/21 "2010-10-02T07:43:12Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > It’s time to make laws about how far a “faithful” education can go. Exorcisms and prayer as a cure for a disease should be outlawed, period. Churches that encourage exorcisms or “all cures come from god” should be closed. I would refine that. Exorcisms that are harmful to the child and a willful failure to obtain medical care for a child should be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/22 "2010-10-02T14:34:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > However Christians cannot force religion on people as you have advocated . Forced conversion is a historical fact. And not limited to Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/23 "2010-10-02T15:07:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > However Christians cannot force religion on people as you have advocated . > > Forced conversion is a historical fact. And not limited to Christianity. And there are plenty of people world wide in various different religions who would be OK with it now, if they were the ones doing the forced converting and they could get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/24 "2010-10-02T15:28:28Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > > [@Guinastasia](#): > > > > IIRC, there HAVE been cases where parents were charged with neglect after refusing to get children medical aid, due to religious beliefs. > > [One such case](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/21/us/21faith.html?ref=healthl) > > > > [Another article](http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/266960) > > And in the case of the state taking over, isn’t there a term for this? Would this be an example of guardian ad litem? > > Your first case, the parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, were ordered to spend 30 days in jail each year for the next six years and were placed on 10 years’ probation. So, 180 days in jail over six years SEPARATELY (so one of them should be home with the other kids). > > I vote for a statute that takes the rest of the kids away and a mandatory sentence of 20-life. If you don’t feed your kids, they get taken away and you’re prosecuted on top of that. In this case the parents KNEW about her disease, had plenty of doctors and hospitals to choose from. > > Another case in Milwaukee, 2003 where an autistic boy died during an exorcism to remove the evil spirit in him. He was crushed/suffocated by being wrapped in sheets. [Article here.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/25/national/main570077.shtml) > > It’s time to make laws about how far a “faithful” education can go. Exorcisms and prayer as a cure for a disease should be outlawed, period. Churches that encourage exorcisms or “all cures come from god” should be closed. Well most Christians would pray along with normal medical treatment. Certainly you aren’t opposed to that. Its only when you get to the cultic loonies that they refuse all medical treatment. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/25 "2010-10-02T15:55:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well most Christians would pray along with normal medical treatment. Certainly you aren’t opposed to that. Its only when you get to the cultic loonies that they refuse all medical treatment. I love it when religious folk call other religious folk loonies. You’re not OK with blood transfusions because you’re a rational person. You’re OK with blood transfusions because the particular sect of Christianity you were born into isn’t against them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/26 "2010-10-02T15:59:53Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > Well most Christians would pray along with normal medical treatment. Certainly you aren’t opposed to that. Its only when you get to the cultic loonies that they refuse all medical treatment. > > I love it when religious folk call other religious folk loonies. You’re not OK with blood transfusions because you’re a rational person. You’re OK with blood transfusions because the particular sect of Christianity you were born into isn’t against them. The Bible does not demand things like “refuse medical treatment” as it is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/27 "2010-10-02T16:01:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > I love it when religious folk call other religious folk loonies. You’re not OK with blood transfusions because you’re a rational person. You’re OK with blood transfusions because the particular sect of Christianity you were born into isn’t against them. > > The Bible does not demand things like “refuse medical treatment” as it is reasonable. Is it your position that the Bible only demands reasonable things? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/28 "2010-10-02T16:18:38Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > The Bible does not demand things like “refuse medical treatment” as it is reasonable. > > Is it your position that the Bible only demands reasonable things? From the human perspective, not necessrilly. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/29 "2010-10-02T21:16:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well most Christians would pray along with normal medical treatment. Certainly you aren’t opposed to that. Its only when you get to the cultic loonies that they refuse all medical treatment. Praying along with normal medical treatment is good wishing, not opposed to that. Of course that time could be spent on researching your doctors and hospitals that are really doing the work. Read the articles posted on the Milwaukee kid and the Neumanns. They look or seem like loonies? By any other standard, they’re not. Own houses, leaders in their communities, but they are absolutely not capable of raising children. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/30 "2010-10-03T00:09:30Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > Is it your position that the Bible only demands reasonable things? > > From the human perspective, not necessrilly. Then what does your previous post mean? Certainly it’s possible to posit a God who is opposed to blood transfusions for reasons known only to It. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/31 "2010-10-03T00:18:48Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > Is it your position that the Bible only demands reasonable things? > > From the human perspective, not necessrilly. What other perspective is there? Or do you mean, from the non-human perspective? Like the perspective of a horse? Or a dog? Or a super computer? Please, be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/32 "2010-10-03T00:31:52Z")
Why are we singling out religious freedom? Deaths of children due to lack of blood transfusion number, what, maybe 5 a year? Far more people die because of the obesity, lack of exercise and bad dietary habits instilled by their parents. I’m guessing that number is at 10, 000 a year, and it’s going to increase exponentially in coming years. And then there are the numerous studies that conclude that a vast majority of vegan children are suffering from malnutririon. So, do the “less than ideal health conditions” have to be religious in origin? Or do you favour the state mandating all health-impacting decisions? If you do favour state intervention in all decisions, where do you draw the line on such a gross incursion into personal liberty? If it is based on medical outcomes then it would seem that if you would start mandating diet before surgery. If you think that it only applies to religious beliefs, why is that? Why does it not also apply to ecological/ethical beliefs as it pertains to vegetarianism? Why does it not also apply to conduct with no basis in belief engendered out of laziness and ignorance, as in most cases of childhood inactivity and obesity? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/33 "2010-10-03T01:28:24Z")
I think people are over-parsing the word choice of “less than ideal health conditions.” It’s pretty clear what **Curtis** meant. There’s no need to try to box him in over trivia like circumcision when that’s clearly not the kind of thing he was referring to. The answer to the OP is that yes, the child’s own rights to health and life supercede any parental rights to force their religion on the kid. Freedom of practice means that individuals can believe and practice what THEY want, it does not mean they have a right to force other people, not even their own children, to subordinate their own lives to it. Children are not property, and parents have no religious right to kill or injure them by withholding medical care. This does not mean that children necessarily have to be taken away from such households, but the state has a responsibility to make sure the kids get the care they need, whether the parents like it or not. There was a case up here in the MSP area a year or so ago where a set of parents were refusing to let their kid get chemo for a condition in which his chances of survival were very high with the treatament, but almost non-existent without it. After a court ruled that the kid had to be allowed treatment, the parents tried to flee the state with the kid. They got caught, the kid got the treatments he needed (he was not taken away from the parents), and his condition (which was critical when the parents tried to flee with him) improved greatly. The government did everything right. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/34 "2010-10-03T01:40:34Z")
Thjis is the caase I was talking about. [Daniel Hauser case](http://www.startribune.com/projects/45440392.html) Thank God for the government. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/35 "2010-10-03T01:42:15Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Why are we singling out religious freedom? Deaths of children due to lack of blood transfusion number, what, maybe 5 a year? > > Far more people die because of the obesity, lack of exercise and bad dietary habits instilled by their parents. I’m guessing that number is at 10, 000 a year, and it’s going to increase exponentially in coming years. > > And then there are the numerous studies that conclude that a vast majority of vegan children are suffering from malnutririon. > > So, do the “less than ideal health conditions” have to be religious in origin? Or do you favour the state mandating all health-impacting decisions? > > If you do favour state intervention in all decisions, where do you draw the line on such a gross incursion into personal liberty? If it is based on medical outcomes then it would seem that if you would start mandating diet before surgery. > > If you think that it only applies to religious beliefs, why is that? Why does it not also apply to ecological/ethical beliefs as it pertains to vegetarianism? Why does it not also apply to conduct with no basis in belief engendered out of laziness and ignorance, as in most cases of childhood inactivity and obesity? Do you have an answer to the OP’s question? Do parents have a right to refuse to let their kids get blood transfusions, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/36 "2010-10-03T01:53:06Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > And then there are the numerous studies that conclude that a vast majority of vegan children are suffering from malnutririon. The forum requires me to be charitable and conclude that you are mistaken in this. Scholargoogling “vegan children malnutrition” [returns](http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/3/822) [several](http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/59/5/1176S) [hits](http://www.bmj.com/content/1/6159/296.abstract). Let’s look at them: > [@](#): > > The majority of children grew and developed normally but they did tend to be smaller in stature and lighter in weight than standards for the general population. Energy, calcium, and vitamin D intakes were usually below the recommended amounts. Their diets, however, were generally adequate but a few children had low intakes of riboflavin and vitamin B-12. Most parents were aware of the need to supplement the diet with vitamin B-12. It is concluded that provided sufficient care is taken, a vegan diet can support normal growth and development. > [@](#): > > The diets and growth of children reared on vegetarian diets are reviewed. Excessive bulk combined with low energy density can be a problem for children aged \< or = 5 y and can lead to imparied growth. Diets that have a high content of phytate and other modifiers of mineral absorption are associated with an increased prevalence of rickets and iron-deficiency anemia. Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a real hazard in unsupplemented or unfortified vegan and vegetarian diets. It is suggested that vegans and vegetarians should use oils with a low ratio of linoleic to linolenic acid in view of the recently recognized role of docosahexaenoic acid in visual functioning. If known pitfalls are avoided, the growth and development of children reared on both vegan and vegetarian diets appears normal. > [@](#): > > Severe nutritional disorders, including kwashiorkor, marasmus, and rickets, were seen in four children and were due to parental food faddism, which should perhaps be regarded as a form of child abuse. All disorders were corrected with more normal diets and vitamin supplements. In view of the potentially serious consequences of restricted diets being fed to children, families at risk should be identified and acceptable nutritional advice given. When children are found to be suffering from undernutrition due to parental food faddism a court order will normally be a necessary step in providing adequate treatment and supervision. Commentary: -None of them suggest that “the vast majority” of vegan kids are malnourished. -Growth and development is normal when parents pay attention to what they’re doing. -And yeah, when kids are malnourished due to a fad diet, we DO see it as child abuse. Is there perhaps the _teeniest_ chance that your antipathy toward animal rights folks is coloring your judgment here? I’m no mind reader; I simply offer it as a hypothesis for your shitalicious reading of the material. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/37 "2010-10-03T02:05:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > From the human perspective, not necessrilly. > > Then what does your previous post mean? Certainly it’s possible to posit a God who is opposed to blood transfusions for reasons known only to It. And there’s no Biblical evidence for that. > [@LouisB](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > From the human perspective, not necessrilly. > > What other perspective is there? Or do you mean, from the non-human perspective? Like the perspective of a horse? Or a dog? Or a super computer? Please, be specific. God obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/38 "2010-10-03T03:10:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > And there’s no Biblical evidence for that. This is something of a circular argument, I think. -The Bible doesn’t demand that we refuse blood transfusions, because blood transfusions are reasonable. -The standard of “reasonableness” we should use is divine, not human. -We know that blood transfusions are divinely reasonable because the Bible doesn’t demand that we refuse them. Is this a fair summary? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/39 "2010-10-03T03:11:56Z")
The Bible has no legal relevance anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788/40 "2010-10-03T03:13:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > And there’s no Biblical evidence for that. > > This is something of a circular argument, I think. > > -The Bible doesn’t demand that we refuse blood transfusions, because blood transfusions are reasonable. > -The standard of “reasonableness” we should use is divine, not human. > -We know that blood transfusions are divinely reasonable because the Bible doesn’t demand that we refuse them. > > Is this a fair summary? Yes. Of course there’s some things the Bible doesn’t condemn or proscribe which are clearly inadvisible such as running stark naked through a street. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rights-of-children-to-life-religious-freedom/555788.md?page=3)