# Rioting in Sweden! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101 "2013-05-23T07:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/21 "2013-05-23T20:31:19Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > 1. Why are they rioting? > Because their cultural background have led them to believe that the world owes them a good living, but they have few actual skills needed by post-industrial Sweden. Many can’t even read or do basic math, or even speak fluent Swedish. And they have no chance in hell to attain the jobs they think they should, and they’re too proud to take the low paying unskilled labour jobs that are still around, and Sweden is content to have the languish on various kind of permanent or semi-permanent passive state welfare. Coupled with a widespread Swedish ideology that they’re being discriminated against and held back etc. they have cultivated various forms of persecution syndromes, whereby they blame everybody but themselves for their dismal future prospects. Some retreat to radical Islamism which puts them in an even worse situation… > Sweden is partially to blame for their failure, for having made excuses on their behalf and for not having told them to stop the fucking whining, shape the fuck up and get with the fucking program. Racist bullshit. Anyone who claims that North African and Middle Eastern Muslims have been brought up to believe the world owes them a living doesn’t know what they’re talking about. I also find the idea that large numbers of second-generation Swedish immigrants can’t speak Swedish to be beyond preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/22 "2013-05-23T20:54:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Racist bullshit. > > Anyone who claims that North African and Middle Eastern Muslims have been brought up to believe the world owes them a living doesn’t know what they’re talking about. > > I also find the idea that large numbers of second-generation Swedish immigrants can’t speak Swedish to be beyond preposterous. Not racist at all. And if you are not aware of secong and third and fourth generation immigrants who do not speak the language of the country they have found themselves in, then you ought to get out more. Visit California or Texas, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/23 "2013-05-23T20:56:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Racist bullshit. Yap yap. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyone who claims that North African and Middle Eastern Muslims have been brought up to believe the world owes them a living doesn’t know what they’re talking about. They are not North African and Middle Eastern Muslims. They are Swedish 2nd generation North African and Middle Eastern Muslims. In general there are much fewer problems with 1st generation immigrants. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I also find the idea that large numbers of second-generation Swedish immigrants can’t speak Swedish to be beyond preposterous. What lies beyond preposterous? I’m assuming that Sweden in this regard is somewhat like Denmark (actually Denmark is said to do better than Sweden in this regard, so the problem may be worse in Sweden), and here it is in fact a common problem that 2nd (and 3rd) generation immigrants speak bad Danish when they start in school. This deficiency haunts them throughout their school years and ensure that they perform much worse than the general population. In fact so bad that 1/3 never learn to read despite being in school for 10 years. And if you cannot read then there are very few legal avenues to make a decent living in a post-industrial economy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/24 "2013-05-23T21:09:56Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Not racist at all. And if you are not aware of secong and third and fourth generation immigrants who do not speak the language of the country they have found themselves in, then you ought to get out more. Visit California or Texas, for example. The idea that there are sizable numbers of third and fourth generation immigrants in American who dont speak English is even stupider. What’s always funny about such xenophobic nonsense is anyone who’s spent time amongst immigrant communities whether they’re Latino, Vietnamese, Chinese etc. a common complaint amongst all of them is how quickly the young people “Americanize” and how many their children can’t speak or can barely speak Spanish/Vietnamese/Chinese etc. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/25 "2013-05-23T21:10:42Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Not racist at all. And if you are not aware of secong and third and fourth generation immigrants who do not speak the language of the country they have found themselves in, then you ought to get out more. Visit California or Texas, for example. I’d love to see a cite of exactly how many 4th generation immigrants in the US cannot speak English. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/26 "2013-05-23T21:27:13Z")
There was a time when second generation immigrants from Mexico learned English as a matter of course and acted as translator for the family (this is my experience in California in the 80s}. Current experiences have shown this is no longer the case. Many people, in their twenties or thirties, living both in CA and TX, no longer have the ability to communicate in English except very basically, and certainly do not read or write English. I am sorry if you think this is somehow due to my prejudice but it is just a fact. Enough of this hijack – sorry OP. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/27 "2013-05-23T21:37:52Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > There was a time when second generation immigrants from Mexico learned English as a matter of course and acted as translator for the family (this is my experience in California in the 80s}. Current experiences have shown this is no longer the case. Many people, in their twenties or thirties, living both in CA and TX, no longer have the ability to communicate in English except very basically, and certainly do not read or write English. I am sorry if you think this is somehow due to my prejudice but it is just a fact. > > Enough of this hijack – sorry OP. Your anecdotal data is off (and is counter to my experience as well). > **[Second-Generation Americans](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/02/07/second-generation-americans/)** > > Chapter 1: Overview Second-generation Americans—the 20 million adult U.S.-born children of immigrants—are substantially better off than immigrants > [@](#): > > Language Usage: About nine-in-ten second-generation Hispanic and Asian-American immigrants are proficient English speakers, substantially more than the immigrant generations of these groups. When it comes to retaining one’s ancestral language, there are sizable differences by race and ethnicity. Eight-in-ten second-generation Hispanics say they can speak Spanish at least pretty well; just four-in-ten second-generation Asian Americans say the same about their parents’ native tongue. I do not know what the equivalent numbers are for Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/28 "2013-05-23T21:38:14Z")
That 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants have a problem with sufficiently mastering Danish is pretty much both generally agreed upon and so completely uncontroversial that you’d think to use a word like preposterous or racist for it tells me you haven’t the first clue what is going on. Here’s I think the latest report by the Danish state on it from a few weeks ago: [SFI](http://www.sfi.dk/Files/Filer/SFI/Pdf/Arbejdspapirer/Notat_Indsatser-for-tosprogede.pdf) ([summary](http://www.avisen.dk/tosprogede-haler-efter-etniske-danskere-i-folkeskole_215139.aspx)). From it – if you know Danish and can read – you’ll find that 65% of 2nd generation immigrant children in 2nd grade perform “below average” or “clearly below average” on Danish language. The same number for the general population is 28%. And as it also says, the same trend can be found when the children leave school 8 years later. Now it may be that the picture is 100% completely different 2km away in Sweden, in which case I shall readily admit I’m mistaken ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/29 "2013-05-23T21:39:57Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > There was a time when second generation immigrants from Mexico learned English as a matter of course and acted as translator for the family (this is my experience in California in the 80s}. Current experiences have shown this is no longer the case. Many people, in their twenties or thirties, living both in CA and TX, no longer have the ability to communicate in English except very basically, and certainly do not read or write English. I am sorry if you think this is somehow due to my prejudice but it is just a fact. Then it should be very easy of you to produce a cite showing significant numbers of 3rd and 4rth generation Mexican-Americans can’t speak English. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/30 "2013-05-23T22:08:04Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > There was a time when second generation immigrants from Mexico learned English as a matter of course and acted as translator for the family (this is my experience in California in the 80s}. Current experiences have shown this is no longer the case. Many people, in their twenties or thirties, living both in CA and TX, no longer have the ability to communicate in English except very basically, and certainly do not read or write English. I am sorry if you think this is somehow due to my prejudice but it is just a fact. Given that it has already been quite amply demonstrated that it is not a fact, I would be very interested in seeing you explain how it is not your prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/31 "2013-05-23T22:55:20Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > There was a time when second generation immigrants from Mexico learned English as a matter of course and acted as translator for the family (this is my experience in California in the 80s}. Current experiences have shown this is no longer the case. Many people, in their twenties or thirties, living both in CA and TX, no longer have the ability to communicate in English except very basically, and certainly do not read or write English. I am sorry if you think this is somehow due to my prejudice but it is just a fact. > > Enough of this hijack – sorry OP. I didn’t say anything about your prejudice, I asked you for a cite of 4th generation immigrants unable to speak English. Apparently, you don’t have one which does not surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/32 "2013-05-23T22:58:09Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > That 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants have a problem with sufficiently mastering Danish is pretty much both generally agreed upon and so completely uncontroversial that you’d think to use a word like preposterous or racist for it tells me you haven’t the first clue what is going on. Here’s I think the latest report by the Danish state on it from a few weeks ago: [SFI](http://www.sfi.dk/Files/Filer/SFI/Pdf/Arbejdspapirer/Notat_Indsatser-for-tosprogede.pdf) ([summary](http://www.avisen.dk/tosprogede-haler-efter-etniske-danskere-i-folkeskole_215139.aspx)). From it – if you know Danish and can read – you’ll find that 65% of 2nd generation immigrant children in 2nd grade perform “below average” or “clearly below average” on Danish language. The same number for the general population is 28%. And as it also says, the same trend can be found when the children leave school 8 years later. Now it may be that the picture is 100% completely different 2km away in Sweden, in which case I shall readily admit I’m mistaken First of all, my challenge to that poster was about his or her claims about the US, not Denmark or Sweden. And secondly, it is not surprising that children who don’t speak Danish at home are going to not do so well in the 2nd grade. But if your school system doesn’t get them proficient in Danish by the time they are in High School, then the problem is with your school system, not the kids. As for my own experience, there are thousands of Hispanic immigrants where I live, and I work with lots of them. Many speak English only marginally, but I have never met any 2nd generation kid who wasn’t perfectly fluent in English. The problem they have is that they lose their good Spanish, not English. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/33 "2013-05-23T23:26:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > First of all, my challenge to that poster was about his or her claims about the US, not Denmark or Sweden. And secondly, it is not surprising that children who don’t speak Danish at home are going to not do so well in the 2nd grade. But if your school system doesn’t get them proficient in Danish by the time they are in High School, then the problem is with your school system, not the kids. > > As for my own experience, there are thousands of Hispanic immigrants where I live, and I work with lots of them. Many speak English only marginally, but I have never met any 2nd generation kid who wasn’t perfectly fluent in English. The problem they have is that they lose their good Spanish, not English. Agreed. The major reason for such problems in Sweden is that, in the words of a friend from the Denmark, “beyond flowery words, they do little to integrate them into society.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/34 "2013-05-24T00:29:19Z")
I haven’t heard anything about this. Without reading the thread, I’m going to guess it’s young people who are members of one or two ethnic minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/35 "2013-05-24T00:52:04Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I have a significant portion of family (heck, my cousin is a member of European Parliament) and a number of friends who live in Sweden and some do live in Stockholm. > > The situation with immigrants of a wrong color is quite similar to problems that many African-Americans experience. The institutional racism, great level of poverty, lack of education and communal services bring about ghetto type of neighborhoods – not only in Sweden but all over Europe. > > So, just like in US when a situation comes to a boiling point with police shooting unarmed African-American all the anger and anxiety erupts and as in US you have “rioting”. They slash and burn things, they get it out of their system and then state works over many months to follow-up on perpetrators and break families further and all of it goes for another cycle until forces of State make an egregious error AGAIN and everything erupts again. > > Conditions for rioting exist every day it’s just that actions of police in shooting someone by mistake or perceived to be a mistake pushes things over and … off we go. And this is no exception - [Riots grip Stockholm suburbs after police shooting - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22622909) > > Now, the way I see it, the cause of it is indeed institutional racism that in Europe – and especially in countries north of Germany – has some really arrogant features that are hard to explain but they are felt. Especially it hits hard 2nd generation of immigrants who are born there and slowly, as they grow and try to embed themselves into a society start to feel it so much harder than their parents who knew what they were getting into and perhaps, due to their experience back home were able to deal with it all. All of my family and friends are white and, in fact, most are ghost white with blonde hair and blue eyes (Slavic look) so they don’t feel it like other immigrants from Middle East and Africa but they, in a way, sympathize with them as they are all immigrants. > > So, yeah, all I’m saying is - if you have a ghetto don’t act all surprised when ghetto erupts in riot. \ Perhaps the problem is that they don’t try to integrate into the host society, but prefer to keep seperate. In the UK when I lived there, problems were caused by ethnic communities building seperate communities with different mores from the majority- ie educating children in religious schools that had no point of reference with the host communities. Seems to me that whatever the reason they immigrate, they don’t want to be “British” or whatever, they want to have their own ethnic community in another country, and change the host country to suit themselves, rather than assimilating into the host community. Anyway, whenever there is an economic downturn, the “stranger” will always be the first to suffer, leading to the problems we see everywhere in the western world now, not least because politicians will use “stranger danger” to curry favour among the electorate. Let’s face it, we are all immigrants if you go back far enough, so it’s simplistic to blame it all on immigration. IMO, if immigrants want to be accepted, get out and assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/36 "2013-05-24T00:52:05Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > There was a time when second generation immigrants from Mexico learned English as a matter of course and acted as translator for the family (this is my experience in California in the 80s}. Current experiences have shown this is no longer the case. Many people, in their twenties or thirties, living both in CA and TX, no longer have the ability to communicate in English except very basically, and certainly do not read or write English. I am sorry if you think this is somehow due to my prejudice but it is just a fact. > > Enough of this hijack – sorry OP. How do you know that these non-English speaking Hispanics you’re meeting are second generation immigrants, given that you can’t communicate with them? ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/37 "2013-05-24T00:56:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > First of all, my challenge to that poster was about his or her claims about the US, not Denmark or Sweden. And secondly, it is not surprising that children who don’t speak Danish at home are going to not do so well in the 2nd grade. But if your school system doesn’t get them proficient in Danish by the time they are in High School, then the problem is with your school system, not the kids. If they can’t speak Danish, it’s down to their parents not making them learn it. Schools aren’t miracle workers. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/38 "2013-05-24T01:01:29Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > 1. Who is rioting? > Mostly 2nd generation immigrants from the Middle East and Africa. > > 2. Why are they rioting? > Because their cultural background have led them to believe that the world owes them a good living, but they have few actual skills needed by post-industrial Sweden. Many can’t even read or do basic math, or even speak fluent Swedish. And they have no chance in hell to attain the jobs they think they should, and they’re too proud to take the low paying unskilled labour jobs that are still around, and Sweden is content to have the languish on various kind of permanent or semi-permanent passive state welfare. Coupled with a widespread Swedish ideology that they’re being discriminated against and held back etc. they have cultivated various forms of persecution syndromes, whereby they blame everybody but themselves for their dismal future prospects. Some retreat to radical Islamism which puts them in an even worse situation. They have a strong elements of shame and face-saving in their cultural background, and to make things worse it’s most the boys that are being left behind, whereas the 2nd generation immigrant girls are doing considerable better which is not nice when you have been brought up to believe that men are better than women. Sweden is partially to blame for their failure, for having made excuses on their behalf and for not having told them to stop the fucking whining, shape the fuck up and get with the fucking program. If you deleted \ I’d agree with you on the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/39 "2013-05-24T01:02:57Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > If they can’t speak Danish, it’s down to their parents not making them learn it. Schools aren’t miracle workers. Yeah, since when has it been the job of schools to teach people things, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/40 "2013-05-24T01:04:11Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Oh, and I am even more curious about whether you who don’t like in Sweden heard of this before you read it here. If you did, please be try to expand on how you percieved it and any thoughts you may have on it now that you think about it. Who doesn’t like Sweden? My maiden name is Swedish (Sahlin) so I have a soft spot for my ancestral homeland. 🙂 Honestly the riots were pretty tame compared to what happens here in the States when we riot, and even more tame than the football hooligan riots you see in England. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101.md?page=3)