# Rioting in Sweden! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101 "2013-05-23T07:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/81 "2013-05-27T22:47:15Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > First impressions? > > Damn Muslims. Never should have let them into the country > > There is no earthly reason for allowing any sizable number of Muslims in Scandinavia. > > Sweden is for Swedes. Kick the Muslims out ASAP. > [@April\_R](#): > > I ment where did you get that there are Imams with multiple child brides wishing to live in Sweden. Also are you against gay marriage? Agreed Imams with four child brides do exist and they are repulsive but they’re like greedy Jewish bankers who love screwing over people or homeless black junkies with eight kids by eight different women. They exist but they’re hardly typical. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/82 "2013-05-27T22:47:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that Islamic culture is just as much part of western culture as the other Abrahamic faiths that’s an extremely stupid comment. You made a distinction between western and Islamic originally. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I really wish the western chauvinists and the Islamic chauvinists would get together sometime, compare notes and realize just how similar they are. Yeah, if they could all just get together and gaze, for a moment, into one another’s eyes all would be healed. Dude. C’mon. Also, I never made the point that Islam doesn’t fit in because one culture is superior to another. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/83 "2013-05-27T23:03:40Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I ment where did you get that there are Imams with multiple child brides wishing to live in Sweden. Also are you against gay marriage? Sharia law permits four wives per man. [Here’s an example from the British press of Muslim girls being married to adult men.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200555/The-British-child-brides-Muslim-mosque-leaders-agree-marry-girl-12--long-parents-dont-tell-anyone.html) Since I don’t speak Sweedish it’s difficult for me to find an example from a Sweedish source. This kind of thing happens. If you don’t think it can happen in Sweden, I don’t know what to tell you. I’m not against gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/84 "2013-05-28T00:35:46Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > Really? Suggesting that a country with a secular tradition is not a good fit for your typical Muslim immigrant is the “flip side” of Muslims “who insist that Americans should stop forcing women to dress like whores and murder their wives and girlfriends . . .” > > Western culture and Islamic culture are nothing alike. In fact, I believe they are irreconcilable. Whatever this might mean, it has nothing to do with the current situation in Europe. Numerous polls over the last decade have shown that the views of most Muslims in Europe and the U.S. are very close to the views of their Christian, Jewish, and secular neighbors. There are the odd hold-outs who want to move to different countries but bring their old country and culture with them, but they are a tiny minority of the people who have actually entered Europe or the U.S. from the M.E.N.A. region or other Muslim majority societies. They tend to think of themselves as citizens of France or Germany or Sweden. They have no problems with women working outside the home. They are (surprisingly) tolerant of interfaith marriages. Very few want anything to do with establishing Sharia courts. (When France barred religious dress in schools, a majority of French Muslims approved that action.) Xenophobe politicians and the media (looking for “exciting” news) focus on the tiny number of immigrants who really do have a problem with Western culture, but the reality is that the majority are seeking to be just like their neighbors with the exception of the prayers they recite and the day of the week they worship. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/85 "2013-05-28T01:07:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Whatever this might mean, it has nothing to do with the current situation in Europe. Numerous polls over the last decade have shown that the views of most Muslims in Europe and the U.S. are very close to the views of their Christian, Jewish, and secular neighbors. There are the odd hold-outs who want to move to different countries but bring their old country and culture with them, but they are a tiny minority of the people who have actually entered Europe or the U.S. from the M.E.N.A. region or other Muslim majority societies. > They tend to think of themselves as citizens of France or Germany or Sweden. They have no problems with women working outside the home. They are (surprisingly) tolerant of interfaith marriages. Very few want anything to do with establishing Sharia courts. (When France barred religious dress in schools, a majority of French Muslims approved that action.) > > Xenophobe politicians and the media (looking for “exciting” news) focus on the tiny number of immigrants who really do have a problem with Western culture, but the reality is that the majority are seeking to be just like their neighbors with the exception of the prayers they recite and the day of the week they worship. I was responding to what Ibn Warraq said about what fumster wrote. The part in quotes is from Ibn Warraq’s post. I should have made that more clear. I hope you’re right. But this whole thread has been about difficulty Muslim immigrants have had with assimilating into their adoptive culture. Q:Why are muslims rioting? A:They are marginalized and live in “ghettos”. Q:Why do they live in ghettos? A:They can’t get jobs. Q:Why can’t they get jobs? A:Many can’t speak the language and aren’t fully assimilated even 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants can’t speak Swedish. Furthermore some believe they don’t have any interest in assimilating and just took advantage of lax immigration laws to get out of their own terrible country. Q:Why are they allowing these people in. It seems to be causing as many problems as it solves. Actually it doesn’t really solve anything it just creates problems where none previously existed. A:RACIST!!! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/86 "2013-05-28T01:16:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that Islamic culture is just as much part of western culture as the other Abrahamic faiths that’s an extremely stupid comment. No, Islamic culture is not really part of what most people consider the west. I know it’s just Wikipedia but it’s a good place to start. > **[Western culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture)** > > Western culture, also known as Western civilization, European civilization, Occidental culture, Western society, or simply the West, refers to the internally diverse culture of the Western world. The term "Western" encompasses the social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, artifacts and technologies primarily rooted in European and Mediterranean histories. A broad concept, "Western culture" does not relate to a region with fixed members or geographica... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/87 "2013-05-28T01:37:19Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > I hope you’re right. But this whole thread has been about difficulty Muslim immigrants have had with assimilating into their adoptive culture. Which, since they are exactly the same problems that other immigrant groups have had over the years, should come as no surprise to anyone that they are occurring or lead anyone (besides the most historically ignorant) to believe that their specific culture is the problem. The U.S. had ghettoes of immigrants from all sorts of places in Europe, for years, and the complaints were nearly identical to those expressed about the current immigrants to Europe. It simply takes a certain amount of time for those situations to be resolved. (Europe may, in fact, be putting up unnecessary barriers in _some_ cases. There is a tradition in European education to divide kids into “scholarly” or “technical” tracks in earlier grades of school. Immigrant kids have been shunted into the “technical” tracks at much higher rates than their local peers. (This may be the result of systems that do not have a century or more of handling immigrants taking the path of least reseistance.) So, immigrant kids who would have been better suited to the “scholarly” track get frustrated and drop out at higher rates. Uneducated kids are unemployable kids. Unemployed people are more likely to resort to criminal activity.) ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/88 "2013-05-28T01:51:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which, since they are exactly the same problems that other immigrant groups have had over the years, should come as no surprise to anyone that they are occurring or lead anyone (besides the most historically ignorant) to believe that their specific culture is the problem. > > The U.S. had ghettoes of immigrants from all sorts of places in Europe, for years, and the complaints were nearly identical to those expressed about the current immigrants to Europe. It simply takes a certain amount of time for those situations to be resolved. > > (Europe may, in fact, be putting up unnecessary barriers in _some_ cases. There is a tradition in European education to divide kids into “scholarly” or “technical” tracks in earlier grades of school. Immigrant kids have been shunted into the “technical” tracks at much higher rates than their local peers. (This may be the result of systems that do not have a century or more of handling immigrants taking the path of least reseistance.) So, immigrant kids who would have been better suited to the “scholarly” track get frustrated and drop out at higher rates. Uneducated kids are unemployable kids. Unemployed people are more likely to resort to criminal activity.) They are not “exactly” the same problems other immigrants have had. There is something specific to immigrants from Muslim majority countries. It’s causing problems never before faced. Take the Boston Marathon terrorists, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/89 "2013-05-28T02:02:25Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > They are not “exactly” the same problems other immigrants have had. There is something specific to immigrants from Muslim majority countries. It’s causing problems never before faced. Take the Boston Marathon terrorists, for example. I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. I didn’t realize you despised Italians. Would you please explain why you do. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/90 "2013-05-28T02:07:33Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > No, Islamic culture is not really part of what most people consider the west. I know it’s just Wikipedia but it’s a good place to start. > > [Western culture - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture) No, Wikipedia is an extremely shitty source. Before we discuss this further perhaps you can tell us if you consider the members of the Eastern Orthodox faith as well as Russians, Mexicans, Poles, Greeks and Scandanavians to be westerners or not. Also, please explain in your own words, not through links, why you think Muslims shouldn’t be considered part of the West. I assume incidentally you also object to classifying white people in the US as Americas. If not, why? ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/91 "2013-05-28T02:08:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. > > I didn’t realize you despised Italians. > > Would you please explain why you do. Would you please explain what point you’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/92 "2013-05-28T02:15:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, Wikipedia is an extremely shitty source. > > Before we discuss this further perhaps you can tell us if you consider the members of the Eastern Orthodox faith as well as Russians, Mexicans, Poles, Greeks and Scandanavians to be westerners or not. > > Also, please explain in your own words, not through links, why you think Muslims shouldn’t be considered part of the West. > > I assume incidentally you also object to classifying white people in the US as Americas. > > If not, why? You made a distinction yourself between Islamic and Western. Why don’t you explain it to us. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/93 "2013-05-28T02:53:14Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > They are not “exactly” the same problems other immigrants have had. There is something specific to immigrants from Muslim majority countries. It’s causing problems never before faced. Take the Boston Marathon terrorists, for example. Ever heard of the Haymarket riot? Leon Czolgosz? The Molly McGuires? On the other hand, we also have the examples of the Ku Klux Klan and Anders Breivik. Certainly, the Islamist movements that have arisen around the world since the end of the Cold War have had a few connections within the immigrant groups, (just as the burgeoning labor movement provided a focus for violence among and against immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries). However, when one looks at the current Swedish riots or the riots in France or other nations a couple of years ago, one finds no serious connection to the Islamist groups or even their doctrines. The brothers Tsarnaev were not really having problems as immigrants. The younger kid was on track to get a decent education and the older one was employable, if frustrated that he did not get exactly the things he wanted. These are not general “immigrant” issues. When the riots in France broke out a few years ago, (similarly over violence by the police, correctly or incorrectly presumed to be anti-immigrant actions), the rioters were labeled “Muslim” youth, yet it turned out that few were actually adherents to their parents’ religion and none were Islamists. Similarly, Congresscritter Peter King has made several effort to hold hearings to expose the terrorists that the immigrant communities are “sheltering,” only to be told by law enforcement officials that the Muslim community has been the best source of information exposing the potential terrorists. Islamist terrorism is a serious threat. However, it has only an occasional connection, and never a strong one, to the immigrants in Europe or the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/94 "2013-05-28T03:06:36Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > You made a distinction yourself between Islamic and Western. Why don’t you explain it to us. No, I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/95 "2013-05-28T03:14:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Ever heard of the Haymarket riot? Leon Czolgosz? The Molly McGuires? > > On the other hand, we also have the examples of the Ku Klux Klan and Anders Breivik. > > Certainly, the Islamist movements that have arisen around the world since the end of the Cold War have had a few connections within the immigrant groups, (just as the burgeoning labor movement provided a focus for violence among and against immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries). However, when one looks at the current Swedish riots or the riots in France or other nations a couple of years ago, one finds no serious connection to the Islamist groups or even their doctrines. > > The brothers Tsarnaev were not really having problems as immigrants. The younger kid was on track to get a decent education and the older one was employable, if frustrated that he did not get exactly the things he wanted. These are not general “immigrant” issues. When the riots in France broke out a few years ago, (similarly over violence by the police, correctly or incorrectly presumed to be anti-immigrant actions), the rioters were labeled “Muslim” youth, yet it turned out that few were actually adherents to their parents’ religion and none were Islamists. Similarly, Congresscritter Peter King has made several effort to hold hearings to expose the terrorists that the immigrant communities are “sheltering,” only to be told by law enforcement officials that the Muslim community has been the best source of information exposing the potential terrorists. > > Islamist terrorism is a serious threat. However, it has only an occasional connection, and never a strong one, to the immigrants in Europe or the U.S. Yeah, OK. There still needs to be immigration reform. I’d like to see a limitation put on government benefits allowed to immigrants. First ten years you must provide your own way. The U.S. and Europe can’t have a social welfare state and at the same time throw open the borders to any unskilled U uneducated immigrants. You just can’t have it both ways. It seems to be at or near the root of the problems in Sweden as well as the U.S. It causes a dependent class that feels marginalized. It causes crime and when the police crack down there is the perception that racism is to blame. It’s not racism. It’s government dependence. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/96 "2013-05-28T03:21:59Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > Yeah, OK. There still needs to be immigration reform. I’d like to see a limitation put on government benefits allowed to immigrants. First ten years you must provide your own way. > > The U.S. and Europe can’t have a social welfare state and at the same time throw open the borders to any unskilled U uneducated immigrants. You just can’t have it both ways. It seems to be at or near the root of the problems in Sweden as well as the U.S. It causes a dependent class that feels marginalized. It causes crime and when the police crack down there is the perception that racism is to blame. It’s not racism. It’s government dependence. Then if its not racism why did you make such racist statements earlier? ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/97 "2013-05-28T03:39:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then if its not racism why did you make such racist statements earlier? My earlier assertion that Islamic culture is irreconcilable with (sorry, but I have to say it) “Western” culture was challenged by tomndeb who provided thoughtful, reasonable and persuasive arguments. I conceded to his arguments. Read what he said. I have hope that he’s right. I don’t care to argue whether or not there is a difference between “Western” and “Islamic” which is a good topic for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/98 "2013-05-28T03:53:15Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > My earlier assertion that Islamic culture is irreconcilable with (sorry, but I have to say it) “Western” culture was challenged by tomndeb who provided thoughtful, reasonable and persuasive arguments. I conceded to his arguments. Read what he said. I have hope that he’s right. > > I don’t care to argue whether or not there is a difference between “Western” and “Islamic” which is a good topic for another thread. Then why did you earlier claim it wasn’t. There’s a saying. All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/99 "2013-05-28T04:05:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then why did you earlier claim it wasn’t. > > There’s a saying. All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. Look, man. I read and occasionally post here not because I am hard set in my ways but because I like to have my thoughts & ideas challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/100 "2013-05-28T05:20:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Whatever this might mean, it has nothing to do with the current situation in Europe. Numerous polls over the last decade have shown that the views of most Muslims in Europe and the U.S. are very close to the views of their Christian, Jewish, and secular neighbors. There are the odd hold-outs who want to move to different countries but bring their old country and culture with them, but they are a tiny minority of the people who have actually entered Europe or the U.S. from the M.E.N.A. region or other Muslim majority societies. > They tend to think of themselves as citizens of France or Germany or Sweden. They have no problems with women working outside the home. They are (surprisingly) tolerant of interfaith marriages. Very few want anything to do with establishing Sharia courts. (When France barred religious dress in schools, a majority of French Muslims approved that action.) > > Xenophobe politicians and the media (looking for “exciting” news) focus on the tiny number of immigrants who really do have a problem with Western culture, but the reality is that the majority are seeking to be just like their neighbors with the exception of the prayers they recite and the day of the week they worship. So in your opinion the immigrants in Sweden have assimilated into the Swedish culture? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101.md?page=6)