# Rioting in Sweden! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101 "2013-05-23T07:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/101 "2013-05-28T06:02:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Racist claptrap. > > I’m reminded of the Muslim idiots I meet who insist that Americans should stop forcing women to dress like whores and murder their wives and girlfriends in such large numbers and that Islam would do an immense amount of good because women in Muslim countries aren’t forced to dress like whores and domestic murders in Islamic countries are vastly lower. > > I really wish the western chauvinists and the Islamic chauvinists would get together sometime, compare notes and realize just how similar they are. > > Honestly, the only real difference is their skin tone. Everything else is just flip sides of the same coin. This is another case of false equivalency. Saudi Arabia does not allow bibles to be imported, women can’t drive, and adult women need permission of male family members to travel. In many Islamic countries it is punishable by death to convert to another religion. In Iran women are beaten with sticks if the religious police don’t think they are dressed modestly enough. This isn’t “black people do it like this and white people do it like that”, it’s a clash of cultures between countries that are hundreds of years apart in social progress. In the 70s college students protested against South African apartheid but for some reason we give these fucked up counties that discriminate against half their citizens a break because it’s just part of their culture. Having whites only bathrooms was part of white culture in the American south, but it didn’t excuse them. Hell, if I were Sweden I don’t think I’d allow American’s from Alabama in without some assurance that they aren’t going to import creationist, racist, anti-gay, and other attitudes that have no place in modern society. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/102 "2013-05-28T06:17:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So in your opinion the immigrants in Sweden have assimilated into the Swedish culture? Which immigrants? Recall that in 2012, [Sweden received nearly 44,000 asylum seekers](http://hiiraan.com/news4/2013/Apr/28957/muslims_get_tough_time_in_sweden.aspx) from mostly Muslim countries: > [@](#): > > Anti-immigrant sentiments have been on the rise in Sweden in recent months due to an influx of refugees from countries as Syria and Somalia. > > Sweden received 43,900 asylum seekers in 2012, a nearly 50 percent jump from 2011 and the second highest on record. > > Nearly half were from Syria, Afghanistan and Somalia and will get at least temporary residency - out of a total 103,000 immigrants. […] > > Muslims make up between 450,000 and 500,000 of Sweden’s nine million people, according to the US State Department report in 2011. Clearly, there are lots of Muslim immigrants in Sweden who assimilate just fine, and lots of others who don’t. I don’t think we can evaluate how many fall into which category based on rioting by some hundreds of the most non-assimilated. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/103 "2013-05-28T06:27:30Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. Who is rioting? > 2. Why are they rioting? > ! Well according to this [BBC news report the reasons include the following](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22656657) > [@](#): > > In the affected areas themselves, some people say the riots are a response to discrimination and relatively high unemployment. Sweden, once a by-word for equality, has seen a widening gap between rich and poor, our correspondent says. > > Others argue that the unrest is a simple matter of criminality, where parents failed to exert enough influence on their offspring, he adds. > > "Gulan Avci, a Swedish MP of Kurdish origin who represents the Stockholm suburb of Bredang, said the rioting was down to a mixture of criminality and disillusioned young people in areas of high unemployment and poor school results. > > She told BBC radio that the country’s integration policies had not been successful." This sounds familiar to the riots and regular car burning that [goes on in parts of Paris](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869392,00.html#ixzz2UZ87qy1V). > [@](#): > > Later the practice became an ambush tactic to draw law and fire authorities to the scene — where they’d then be attacked by gangs. Now the act works as a manner of daily protest against alienation, discrimination and the indifference of more affluent French society. The question is will Sweden continue to import thousands of low skilled people with few prospects of employment, sometimes from radically different cultures? If so, it seems likely there will be more segregation, poverty, alienation & similar problems to those seen in France. I predict they will continue to do so for strong ideological reasons, even if economically and socially it costs them. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/104 "2013-05-28T06:30:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, please explain in your own words, not through links, why you think Muslims shouldn’t be considered part of the West. You made the original assertion that Islamic culture was just as much part of the west as any other Abrahamic religion. So, no, you explain it. But first, please explain what you mean by Islamic culture. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/105 "2013-05-28T06:32:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Clearly, there are lots of Muslim immigrants in Sweden who assimilate just fine, and lots of others who don’t. I don’t think we can evaluate how many fall into which category based on rioting by some hundreds of the most non-assimilated. I don’t see anything stopping an evaluation nor do I see any problem with making a guess based on who is rioting. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/106 "2013-05-28T07:39:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t see anything stopping an evaluation nor do I see any problem with making a guess based on who is rioting. ? Really? We know that there are about half a million Muslims in Sweden, some hundreds of whom are rioting, and you figure we can effectively evaluate how many Swedish Muslims are assimilated and how many are not? Well, if you think so, by all means have at it. I will be interested to see your methodology, your data sources, and your results. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/107 "2013-05-28T08:12:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ? Really? We know that there are about half a million Muslims in Sweden, some hundreds of whom are rioting, and you figure we can effectively evaluate how many Swedish Muslims are assimilated and how many are not? > > Well, if you think so, by all means have at it. I will be interested to see your methodology, your data sources, and your results. The riots occur in areas where there are a concentration of Muslims. The rioters represent a sample of a shared mindset. Not all of that mindset will riot but the viewpoint exists and is at odds with Swedish culture. Conclusion, there is a problem with immigrants assimilating into Swedish culture. If this is consistent with other immigrants then the problem is with the Swedes. If not, the problem is with the immigrants rioting. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/108 "2013-05-28T10:16:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The riots occur in areas where there are a concentration of Muslims. The rioters represent a sample of a shared mindset. Not all of that mindset will riot but the viewpoint exists and is at odds with Swedish culture. > > Conclusion, there is a problem with immigrants assimilating into Swedish culture. If this is consistent with other immigrants then the problem is with the Swedes. If not, the problem is with the immigrants rioting. Yes, the problem is with the Swedes. The ones who decided there was something wrong with Sweden and that it required large numbers of people who lack skills and are culturally very different. Historians in future years will no doubt ponder what madness gripped them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/109 "2013-05-28T10:30:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So in your opinion the immigrants in Sweden have assimilated into the Swedish culture? Not yet. It generally takes a few decades for new groups to assimilate. Note that the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, and several other large groups were involved in rioting, at one time or another, when they landed in cities in large groups in the U.S. while other groups were associated with high levels of crime during the period of the highest immigration rates. Such rioting and criminal activity is most often seen among the young and unemployed. Even they tend to absorb and share the basic attitudes of the country in which they live, but their frustration at being unable to make their own way evokes antisocial behavior. (This is the same cross-cultural demographic that engages in rioting after major sporting events, whether it be baseball, football, or _futbol_, but those riots get blamed on “sports” and not “immigration.”) There are problems on both sides. There are things that may be done on either side that will exacerbate or ameliorate the situation. I would guess that as long as neither side hardens their position into one that claims the other side’s culture is evil (stupid/lazy/stand-offish/closed/whatever), the situation will run its course and there will eventually be a peaceful blending. Until then, the typical problems of mass immigration will occur. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/110 "2013-05-28T12:27:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not yet. It generally takes a few decades for new groups to assimilate. Note that the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, and several other large groups were involved in rioting, at one time or another, when they landed in cities in large groups in the U.S. while other groups were associated with high levels of crime during the period of the highest immigration rates. Not a very good example. The United States at the turn of the century is nothing like Sweden or the United States is today. Not even a tiny bit. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/111 "2013-05-28T12:34:43Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You made the original assertion that Islamic culture was just as much part of the west as any other Abrahamic religion. So, no, you explain it. But first, please explain what you mean by Islamic culture. Why wouldn’t Islam be as much a part of “the west” which you apparantly think includes the Swedes as the Jews and the Russians? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/112 "2013-05-28T17:06:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why wouldn’t Islam be as much a part of “the west” which you apparantly think includes the Swedes as the Jews and the Russians? We may be getting our wires crossed, Ibn Warraq. I’m not really sure what you mean by Islam being “part of the west.” Nor have you defined what you mean by Islamic culture. I took Islamic culture to mean the cultures in places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc., etc. which are not considered to be part of the western world. Are there Islamic people in the western world? Sure. Does that make Islam a western religion? No more than Shinto, Buddhism or Hinduism. But if you’re asking me if Muslims can be western? Well, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/113 "2013-05-28T17:09:40Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > We may be getting our wires crossed, Ibn Warraq. I’m not really sure what you mean by Islam being “part of the west.” Nor have you defined what you mean by Islamic culture. I took Islamic culture to mean the cultures in places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc., etc. which are not considered to be part of the western world. > > Are there Islamic people in the western world? Sure. Does that make Islam a western religion? No more than Shinto, Buddhism or Hinduism. But if you’re asking me if Muslims can be western? Well, yeah. Except, it’s not like Buddhism or Hinduism. It’s an Abrahamic religion like Judaism or Christianity. Based on your standards, neither Islam, Christianity, or Judaism can be considered “western”. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/114 "2013-05-28T17:27:47Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > They must have an awful time fitting in :rolleyes: > > I hate to say something that a bunch of racists will agree with, but I have no idea why Sweden decided it was a good idea to take in lots of immigrants from Muslim countries. The cultures are about as far apart as one can imagine. > > One of two things is going to happen: the immigrants are going to keep their culture of denying women equal rights and status and put themselves in conflict with Swedish society. > > Or, the second generation immigrants are going to adopt western ways and put themselves in conflict with their parents and older relatives. > > It’s one thing to have someone apply for residency who says that they have always admired Sweden for its secular traditions and equality of opportunity and would like to live their as a Swede. It’s another for someone to say my own country sucks so much I’l willing to live with you infidels as long as I can force my women to wear scarves and beat the shit out of them if they dare to defy me. Why can’t both happen? I’m reminded of the great Jewish immigration to the U.S. over the last century or so. Jews in America today cover a vast range of religousness, from the totally secular to the ultra-orthodox Hassids, with every level in betweeen. And I think they’ve contributed tremendously to the country. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/115 "2013-05-28T17:46:58Z")
And they accept the country’s liberal values. I bet if 1 million Texans wanted to move to Sweden, Sweden would seriously think about that one before saying “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/116 "2013-05-28T17:53:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And they accept the country’s liberal values. I bet if 1 million Texans wanted to move to Sweden, Sweden would seriously think about that one before saying “yes”. Sweden is certainly a progressive country, but a lot of people from the outside tend to really overemphasize such qualities and overlook others. For example, it’s a country where journalists can and are thrown in jail for “libel” and which practiced eugenics up until the 1980s. I suspect quite a few Swedes, like the late Stieg Larsson, would be fairly shocked by the way many Americans talk about their native country. I’m reminded of being in Costa Rica and listening to people talk about America who’s views were clearly influenced by many viewings of _Dallas_ and _The Bold and the Beautiful_. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/117 "2013-05-28T17:56:47Z")
Sweden also has private social security accounts and no minimum wage. What I was referring to though was liberal values of tolerance and equality shared by all Western countries. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/118 "2013-05-28T17:57:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except, it’s not like Buddhism or Hinduism. It’s an Abrahamic religion like Judaism or Christianity. > > Based on your standards, neither Islam, Christianity, or Judaism can be considered “western”. I still don’t know what you mean by Islamic culture nor am I sure what you mean by Islam being part of the west. Muslims living in Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria and Egypt don’t think of themselves as being part of the western world. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/119 "2013-05-28T18:34:06Z")
IMHO, mainstream Christianity and Judaism count as mostly “western” nowadays in that their current identities have been largely shaped as part of the culture of Western Europe during the very distinctive (though not uniform or unique) development that we call “modernity”. That’s what is generally meant by “western” culturally speaking, AFAICT: some identification with aspects of classical cultures, adherence to early modern and modern science and technology, and a bunch of neoclassical ideas in political/philosophical/religious thought emerging in the 18th century. By these criteria, there are versions of Christianity and Judaism that are not particularly “western” at all, such as the Beta Israel or ancient Ethiopian Judaism and some Eastern Christian traditions. Moreover, there are or have been some cultural forms of Islam that are arguably more “western” than not, such as 19th-century Ottomanism. Ibn Warraq is right that there’s nothing inherently “western” in a political, historical or philosophical sense about the roots of Judaism or Christianity, any more than those of Islam. Had Christianity not essentially taken over the Western Roman Empire and carried much of Judaism along with it, the three Abrahamic religions would probably look a lot more culturally similar than they do now. As things are, though, Judaism and Christianity are largely lumped in as part of “western culture”, while Islam is not. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101/120 "2013-05-28T18:34:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except, it’s not like Buddhism or Hinduism. It’s an Abrahamic religion like Judaism or Christianity. > > Based on your standards, neither Islam, Christianity, or Judaism can be considered “western”. except that we have fundamental Jews and Christians that are willing to exist within “Western Culture” and thrive independent of it. There is no acclimation of fundamental Muslims into Western society and this is the elephant in the room. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rioting-in-sweden/659101.md?page=7)