# Riots in Estonia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098 "2007-04-29T22:53:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Argen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Argen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argen)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/1 "2007-04-29T22:53:16Z")
Story [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6599937.stm), [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6602171.stm), and [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6604647.stm). It appears the Russians have really taken offense to this. Also, from a few Estonian friends, it appears that there have been broadcasts of some of the rioters saying that a few hundred thousand Russians from Russia and Latvia are coming to join in the riots. And apparently the police force there is inadequate to do anything to stop this. What do you think? Is this just an attempt by Putin to incite a war by forcing the Estonians to use military force? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/2 "2007-04-29T23:44:54Z")
[English Russia](http://englishrussia.com/?p=867#more-867) has lots of pictures. It’s a war memorial, and the Estonians cut the statues feet off when they removed it. > [@](#): > > It was a monument that from Russian point of view commemorates the glory of Soviet forces liberating Estonia and Europe from the Nazi invasion. From the Estonian official point of view it is the monument of the invaders because Estonians were fighting together with German army against Soviet and thus it can’t stand anymore in Estonia. With that sort of tension involved, the Estonians should have been a bit more diplomatic about the removal, maybe work out an agreement with the Russian government to transplant it to a more appropriate spot. They also need to detail their plan for dealing with the associated graves. When you just dig up old soldiers without telling anyone what you’re up to, people get pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Argen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Argen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/3 "2007-04-30T00:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] It’s a war memorial, and the Estonians cut the statues feet off when they removed it. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t aware of this, the article says it was “safe and undamaged,” but apparently not. ☹ I agree that the Estonians could have used a little more diplomacy, but to them it symbolizes a Russian occupation of 50+ years. I don’t blame them for wanting to be rid of statue-I’m surprised they didn’t do it sooner. I don’t blame them Estonian citizens that happen to be Russians for protesting, but it appears that [a large portion of Russia](http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2461168,00.html) is angered by this removal. Maybe the Estonians should offer the statue to Russia? On another note, since Estonia is a member of NATO - if they were forced to use military action to quell rebellions by a sizable amount of Russians, and Russia retaliated, would the other members be required to help them? Could this spark [WWIII](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=417783) ? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/4 "2007-04-30T02:33:44Z")
The irony is that to some poele in Eastern Europe, Nazi Germany was a saviour against the Russians! Of course, the Poles and Ukrainians go the short end of the stick, but for some Estonians and Finns and so on, the Germans were a godsend. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/5 "2007-04-30T03:52:06Z")
From what I’ve gathered from the news and an Estonian friend, the memorial isn’t really being disrespected at all. It’s being moved to a prominent spot in a cemetary, which is arguably a more appropriate spot as a memorial for dead soldiers. The reason it was moved was not really because of its symbolism, but for a more practical matter: Every year on May (9th?), there is a crowd of Russians gathering around the statue. At first, it was mainly old Russians who really used the occasion as a social gathering and a true memorial day. They would have a picnic, play games, and some even took pains to decorate the whole field surrounding it with carnations. Then, some years later, Russian youth started showing up, wielding Soviet flags. The youth of course are too young to actually remember what the Soviet days were really like, but a lot of them are disaffected and feel the need to stand up, using a call to a neo-Soviet Union as an anthem. Then, Estonian youth started showing up, with Estonian flags. Every year, the confrontation has been getting uglier and uglier. Since the memorial was in such a central location, it was a very easy flashpoint; hence the decision to move it before the May ‘celebration’. On the other hand, I doubt that moving the statue will prevent people from gathering in the old spot anyway. Russians do have some real grievances; for example the Russians in Estonia (about 30% of population) are mostly stuck in the poorest regions, and it is true that not knowing how to speak Estonian puts you in a serious disadvantage. However, many Russians are simply refusing to learn Estonian, and want Russian installed as an official language right up there with Estonian. There are free Estonian classes for any Russian that wants it, and Estonian is taught even in Russian schools (I guess as a foreign language). Also, the Estonian government offers aid to any Russian in Estonia who wants to move back to Russia. Of course, Russia being in as shitty shape as it is, very few Russian-Estonians actually take them up on that offer. To me, the situation seems somewhat analogous to the Mexican immigration scene in the southern US. It would be like disaffected Mexican youth rioting because the US government moves a statue of some great Mexican hero, because Spanish is not an official American language, because Mexican immigrants are in general poorer than average. Of course, the whole history behind it is completely different, but really, what right would Mexico have to tell the US off, to threaten sanctions, etc. for moving a statue on its own territory (which is what Russia is doing)? It seems to me that the whole movement would not nearly be as strong if Russia wasn’t fanning the flames at every possible opportunity, in an attempt to make itself look good to Russians everywhere (which is similar to China’s hollering over Taiwan as a way to help maintain national unity on the mainland). Russian newspapers are really laying it on thick, calling for a fight against Estonian fascism. Ironic coming from a country where its best reporters have been killed for investigating corruption and other sketchy activity in the Russian power structure. It’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/6 "2007-04-30T13:50:24Z")
It’s frustrating that US news outlets are paying no attention to this story. It is interesting (and somewhat ominous). Thankfully, the BBC keeps me informed. ---
**Author:** ![Argen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Argen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/7 "2007-04-30T20:18:55Z")
I agree. I didn’t know anything about it until I got a chance to talk to my Estonian friends, who then told me all about it. ---
**Author:** ![Argen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Argen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/8 "2007-04-30T21:55:41Z")
[Update.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6608053.stm) From the article: > [@](#): > > A Russian parliament delegation is now in Tallinn and has called on the Estonian government to resign over the removal of the monument. Does this mean what I think it says – that Russian parliament has asked the Estonian government to disband? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/9 "2007-04-30T22:30:20Z")
Uh oh. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/10 "2007-05-01T03:50:58Z")
Russia just seems to be in posturing/bullying mode right now. They probably like having as many harmless Wag the Dogs as possible to distract poor, angry Russians from Russia’s own serious problems. Or perhaps they are trying to scare the Estonian populace into voting for a more Moscow-friendly government. If that’s the case, I think it’ll have about as much success as China did in trying to influence Taiwanese elections… ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/11 "2007-05-01T05:24:05Z")
Moving it to a military cemetery seems fine to me. Hmm, not a happy situation, though, but I’m with **Windwalker** - looks as though Russia is stirring up a fuss for the “fun” of it. Deflecting attention and so on. This bit strike so me as nastily overbearing. > [@](#): > > A Russian parliament delegation is now in Tallinn and has called on the Estonian government to resign over the removal of the monument. ``` :rolleyes: ``` (And I very nearly typed **Windwalker** ’s name as “Windbreaker” so I am obviously someone who ought to stay well away from diplomatic incidents). :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/12 "2007-05-01T06:03:00Z")
I wonder if the EU and/or NATO will have the balls to call Moscow on its bullshit… It might be better not to get in a war of words with Russia, to not try to alienate Russia further, but damn, Moscow is seriously infringing on one of their member’s sovereignty here. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/13 "2007-05-03T07:21:48Z")
Update: Looks like the Estonian consulate [has been attacked](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21663479-1702,00.html) by Kremlin-backed youth groups. In their, um, fervor, they also [attacked the Swedish ambassador’s vehicle](http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1299130.php/Sweden_protests_attack_on_ambassadors_vechicle_in_Russia__Extra_). The Russians seem to be providing minimal security to the Estonian embassy, only swooping in when things might get serious. The Nasi seem to be nothing more than state-sponsored thugs, like a Putin’s Youth, who they use when they need a display of grassroots nationalism. But how dumb can the Kremlin be that it actually allowed the Estonian ambassador to be attacked on Russian soil? And the SWEDISH one? Are the Russians fucking insane? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/14 "2007-05-03T12:03:00Z")
[QUOTE=Argen] [Update.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6608053.stm) From the article: Does this mean what I think it says – that Russian parliament has asked the Estonian government to disband? [/QUOTE] Change Prime Ministers (and other Ministers), I think – the usage in which “the British government threatened to resign today if the Commons refuses to pass Measure X.” Still not a good threat. > [@](#): > > And the SWEDISH one? It’s preventative, to keep Karl XVI Gustav from emulating Karl XII 😉 – Seriously, in the time of Peter the Great, Russia and Sweden fought for about 20 years straight, with Estonia one of the major bones of contention. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/15 "2007-05-03T17:48:05Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] It’s preventative, to keep Karl XVI Gustav from emulating Karl XII 😉 – Seriously, in the time of Peter the Great, Russia and Sweden fought for about 20 years straight, with Estonia one of the major bones of contention. [/QUOTE] Ah, it all makes sense now! Russia is simply trying to liberate Estonia from Sweden’s tightening grip, one that is a squeeze or two away from annexation. Certain unnamed Estonian leaders are in on it, selling out their country for cheap vodka socks and floozy Finns, but Russia is hip to their game, and has unleashed its Nasi Freedom Champions to protect those lovable, but oh so annexable Estonians from grown-up international intrigue. Well, it does about as much sense as their official propaganda 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-estonia/402098/16 "2007-05-03T20:27:37Z")
Estonia could have been a bit more tactful in its handling of the situation. But this is Russia’s heavy-handed, widely-resented “Good Neighbor” policy in only its latest iteration. :rolleyes: