# Riots in Ohio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417 "2005-10-16T00:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/61 "2005-10-18T08:43:54Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Another shocking misinterpretation of the first amendment. As [this](http://www.freewarehof.org/speech.html) cite explains, the first amendment does not confer an absolute right to freedom of speech (or protest), but limits the power of the legislative branch of government to control speech. Judges impose gag orders, and laws regarding defacement, copy-write, etc. are overarching. Or in this case, the right to protest can be abridged when the protests may incite a riot, or can be classified as reckless endangerment. I believe both were foreseeable in this case, and the Nazis should not have been allowed to march. At some point, the public interest has to be taken into consideration. Allowing a few dozens idiots to march is not worth risking the safety of thousands of people. Please try to understand the first amendment before claiming someone else is misinterpreting it. See [Heckler’s Veto](http://www.rbs2.com/heckler.htm). The Supreme Court does not agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/62 "2005-10-18T13:08:11Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > You hit the nail on the head. > > WTF is up with the **HEADLINE WRITERS**? > > The story to which you linked was written on the 16th of the month, the day the riot occurred, perhaps just as it was occuring and when all the info wasn’t in. > > Blast ABC for this one. I did. I wrote 'em an e-mail (which, of course, they’ll probably never read) yesterday after Bricker posted the link. Here it is: > [@](#): > > Y’all might wanna rethink the headline on the story linked below. It gives the misleading impression that white supremacists were the rioters. The content of the story itself contradicts that here: “At least 65 people were arrested on charges including assault, vandalism, failure to obey police and failure to disperse, Navarre said. He said the white supremacists had left hours earlier.” > > In actual fact, the protestors of the NAZI march are the folks who rioted. > > [http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1220242&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1220242&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312) ---
**Author:** ![GrizzRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ba0ec/32.png) [@GrizzRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrizzRich)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/63 "2005-10-18T13:38:27Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **GrizzRich** > > Their point is that ethnic minorities are inferior to Whites. > They have proven nothing. Unless, perhaps, you think like they do. Perhaps I wasn’t clear… I should have said “_Sadly, I think it all went down much like the organizers of the Klan rally had hoped_.” and not “Sadly, I think they’ve proven their point.” In all seriousness, did the Klan REALLY think that they wouldn’t have to face a confrontation? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/64 "2005-10-18T13:40:05Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > No, any rational person realizes that the events that occurred don’t validate any point the Nazi’s were trying to make. I hope that you aren’t that retarded. Hey dipshit, the cite linked in the OP lists the vague point of their march to be against “black crime” in the first sentence. I hope you aren’t too _retarded_ to miss out on that rather pertinant nugget. I agree that any rational person realizes that there is no validity to the group’s mission, but I hope you aren’t too _retarded_ to realize that the recruitment pool that groups like these target doesn’t really place critical thinking high on their list. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/65 "2005-10-18T14:12:44Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Why is is that any thread having something to do with black people or black issues inspires people to abandon all critical thinking skills? Well, now, that’s an interesting question, **brickbacon**. A very interesting question, indeed. > [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@Campion](#): > > > > And, of course, the requisite sound bite from random citizens: “Well, the city shouldn’t have let the Nazis come here to march.” Riiight. Permit me to introduce you to a little concept we sometimes refer to as the First Amendment. I know, pesky little thing, always rearing its ugly head at the most inconvenient times. > > Another shocking misinterpretation of the first amendment. As [this](http://www.freewarehof.org/speech.html) cite explains, the first amendment does not confer an absolute right to freedom of speech (or protest), but limits the power of the legislative branch of government to control speech. Judges impose gag orders, and laws regarding defacement, copy-write, etc. are overarching. Or in this case, the right to protest can be abridged when the protests may incite a riot, or can be classified as reckless endangerment. I believe both were foreseeable in this case, and the Nazis should not have been allowed to march. At some point, the public interest has to be taken into consideration. Allowing a few dozens idiots to march is not worth risking the safety of thousands of people. Please try to understand the first amendment before claiming someone else is misinterpreting it. Interesting that you would characterize my statement as a “shocking misinterpretation” of the First Amendment, without citation to any authority. Other than some webpage that gets wrong more than it gets right, and does not itself cite to any authority. I realize you don’t actually know what the First Amendment says, or how the courts have interpreted it, particularly if you’re relying on that webpage for your opinions. I realize you’ve probably never read any of the caselaw, and if you’re relying on that page to which you cited, you would be shocked by the caselaw you do read. Yes, the right to free speech can be curtailed, and different types of speech get different levels of protection. This is “political speech” and therefore entitled to the highest level of protection. And note that this was a “sidewalk march.” The city can require permits for assembling or for marching in the streets, but their ability to prevent people from walking on the sidewalk is pretty minimal. All they can do is try to protect the people exercising their constitutional rights, _whether or not you agree with their position_. Which is what the city tried to do, not aware that gangs planned the level of violence and uproar that they did. (And don’t kid yourself that this was a reaction to the presence of 2 dozen nutjobs.) The standard for denying a permit isn’t, “we think this might incite a riot.” Judges generally require something we call “evidence” before doing something as drastic as affirming a denial of constitutional rights to someone. Mere speculation would be insufficient, and, frankly, most judges would simply tell the city to bring on more cops to solve the problem. Had Toledo been better prepared for this, and had there not been a group of people seeking both to incite and to take advantage of the situation, this wouldn’t have turned into the clusterfuck it did. Suffice it to say that I’m comfortable with my comment, and my reading of the First Amendment, and I can think of a few thousand people in this country (all of them addressed as “Your Honor”) who would agree with me. **Bricker** , the difference I see between this case and _Village of Skokie_ is that Toledo didn’t pass ordinances trying to keep the Nazis out. But _Village of Skokie_’s holding on the free speech issues controls, and the lack of ordinances is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/66 "2005-10-18T14:45:49Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Ugh. You see why I had to get out of Ohio? I swear the mentality, the racial attitudes there are still backward as ever. Not all of Ohio is as you described thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/67 "2005-10-18T15:46:05Z")
> [@GrizzRich](#): > > In all seriousness, did the Klan REALLY think that they wouldn’t have to face a confrontation? :rolleyes: I’m sure that they wanted one, problem is the nature of how it unfolded makes them look like the innocent victims of racial hatred, not the more correct opposite. If the Nazi’s can’t hold a simple demonstration without this kind of response, they are not the **only** ones with problems. Mere presence in a public place does not warrant rioting and looting. Or maybe people feel that other controversial groups should be violently supressed from assembly as well. Would it somehow become more acceptable to start throwing rocks at anti-war protesters if the vast majority of the population supports a war no matter how just or injust that war may be? The idea that I think the OP and folks like **Nurse Carmen** are trying to get across is, this is a danger to anyone with fringe views on race, religion, political power, any number of things. We as dopers should hold these peoples right to assemble and express their opinions to be nearly sacred, many of us here have non-mainstream beliefs that are offensive to others, thankfully we don’t get bottles and rocks thrown at us in any more than a metaphorical sense. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/68 "2005-10-18T15:52:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Was _National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie_ decided incorrectly by the Supreme Court? > > If not, what distinguishes that case from this one? First, I think it’s clear they were trying to incite a riot. Second as [this](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/15/nazi.march/?section=cnn_topstories) states: > [@](#): > > A statement from the National Socialist Movement said Toledo city officials had said they would not issue a permit for the group’s march. The group said it did not seek a permit, because it didn’t ask for “special accommodations.” > > “We are not asking that roads be closed; we are not asking that sidewalks be closed; we are not asking for additional police protection,” White said in the statement. "All we are saying is that we will have a few people walking down the street making a statement about an issue the City is refusing to address. > > “And if the City interferes with or unreasonably burdens our ability to do so, then they will answer for their behavior in court,” the statement added. As I understand it, the case you mentioned involves the denial of an application for a permit based on ordinances passed in response to the planned protest. “Judge Bernard [Decker](http://www.skokiehistory.info/chrono/nazis.html) of the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois issues an order **ruling that the three ordinances adopted by the Skokie Village Board aimed at preventing Frank Collin and his Nationalist Socialist party sympathizers from marching in Skokie are unconstitutional** as violative of the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.” I believe the issue at hand was the ordinances adopted in response to the application. Seeing as the group in the Toledo case didn’t apply for a permit, and were clearly trying to incite a riot (in the opinions of many in the city), I think the city could have lawfully prevented their march, told them they’d been arrested, or at the very least, blocked off the area to civilians and vehicles to provide a safer environment. > [@NurseCarmen](#): > > Hey dipshit, the cite linked in the OP lists the vague point of their march to be against “black crime” in the first sentence. I hope you aren’t too _retarded_ to miss out on that rather pertinant nugget. > > I agree that any rational person realizes that there is no validity to the group’s mission, but I hope you aren’t too _retarded_ to realize that the recruitment pool that groups like these target doesn’t really place critical thinking high on their list. Any idiot realizes that that was not their real point. You, as a critical thinker, should realize that fact. Of course, they may sway some idiots to their side, but that may have happened anyway. You are trying to apply a rational thought process to irrational people. People who would agree with these Nazis don’t need a reason. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/69 "2005-10-18T17:05:22Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > > [@Johanna](#): > > > > Ugh. You see why I had to get out of Ohio? I swear the mentality, the racial attitudes there are still backward as ever. > > Not all of Ohio is as you described thank you very much. Actually, according to the stories, so far, _Toledo_ is not “like that.” The Nazis were only able to assemble 14 people. The whites in the neighborhood are quoted as saying that they did not want the Nazis to come in. The black leaders in the city asked that everyone ignore them. Unfortunately, some gangs decided to use the presence of the Nazis as an excuse to raise their own kind of hell. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/70 "2005-10-18T17:42:54Z")
Hah! The power of communication works. Link to the corrected ABC story is here: [http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1220284](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1220284) I just received a return e-mail from ABC noting the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/71 "2005-10-19T00:20:28Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Not all of Ohio is as you described thank you very much. Not all of Ohio, be that as it may, I was specifically thinking of Cleveland, homie. I was born and raised in Cleveland, and the unenlightened racial attitudes there made it a stifling mental environment. I wonder if it has changed any since the early '90s. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/72 "2005-10-19T00:29:32Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Hah! The power of communication works. Link to the corrected ABC story is here: > [http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1220284](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1220284) > > I just received a return e-mail from ABC noting the correction. Kudos to you, Sir! That’s awesome that you took the time to send them a request for correction, and that they actually listened. Hmm, the rest of us, myself included, were just spouting off on a message board. Good show on your part! ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417/73 "2005-12-08T18:10:53Z")
Stay tuned; round two is gonna be Saturday, December 10. [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS16/512010393](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS16/512010393) [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051208/NEWS16/512080450](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051208/NEWS16/512080450) Fuck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/riots-in-ohio/326417.md?page=3)