# Rip NRA? :D **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 15, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635 "2021-01-15T22:58:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/41 "2021-01-17T06:55:09Z")
I’m not going to keep pointing out what’s in your own link you provided, where the AG lists various laws broken (state and federal). If your contention is that the AG is full of crap, maybe so, I have no idea. But if that’s the case then this whole discussion is probably moot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/42 "2021-01-17T07:12:00Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I’m not going to keep pointing out what’s in your own link you provided, where the AG lists various laws broken (state and federal) Sigh. Do I have to explain yet again the difference between **CIVIL** and **CRIMINAL** charges? Yes, she is alleging the NRA violated several/many **CIVIL** violations. For which she is **SUING** them . Instead of **CRIMINAL** violations for which she would be **indicting** them. Do you have any links or cites to **CRIMINAL Indictments**? Do you know the difference between a **CIVIL lawsuit** and a **CRIMINAL Indictment**? Apparently not, since you, as you say “…going to keep pointing out …”. > **[NRA, Battling on 2 Fronts, Aims to Move AG James' Lawsuit Out of New York City...](https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2020/11/13/nra-battling-on-2-fronts-aims-to-move-ag-james-lawsuit-out-of-new-york-city/?slreturn=20240104184723)** > > William Brewer, the NRA’s lawyer, suggested that the suit by state Attorney General Letitia James aimed at dissolving the 149-year-old gun-rights group, although not in federal court, is required to be part of federal multidistrict litigation. He... “_The National Rifle Association is battling in court on two fronts to move a high-profile_ **lawsuit** _brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James aiming to dissolve the gun-rights group out of New York City._” bolding etc mine [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns/national-rifle-association-files-for-bankruptcy-seeking-to-escape-new-york-lawsuit-idUSKBN29K2LV](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns/national-rifle-association-files-for-bankruptcy-seeking-to-escape-new-york-lawsuit-idUSKBN29K2LV) "_The NRA was_ **sued** _in August by New York Attorney General Letitia James,…_…_In her_ **lawsuit,** _James said the NRA’s incorporation as a nonprofit in New York gave her authority to seek its dissolution._ Please show me where in _any_ cite, _anywhere,_ James is filing _any_ criminal charges or indictments. She is just suing them. Now yes, in a Civil lawsuit you can _allege_ fraud, but even if you win the suit, you have not proven fraud. Nor does the STATE AG have _anything at all to do_ with Federal charges. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/43 "2021-01-17T07:16:26Z")
[quote=“Odesio, post:12, topic:930635”] I used to be a member of the NRA but their increasing loyalty to the Republican party and their incessant fearmongering turned me away.[/quote] I guess they shot themselves in the foot. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/44 "2021-01-17T07:20:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Should you penalize five million members for the actions of a couple guys? In what way are you penalizing all the members by punishing the organization? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/45 "2021-01-17T07:22:09Z")
The NY State AG wants to shut down the NRA, dontchaknow. The members will lose all benefits that have paid for. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/46 "2021-01-17T07:23:30Z")
Which would be the fault of the NRA, of course, ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/47 "2021-01-17T07:33:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Please show me where in _any_ cite, _anywhere,_ James is filing _any_ criminal charges or indictments. She is just suing them. Now yes, in a Civil lawsuit you can _allege_ fraud, but even if you win the suit, you have not proven fraud. I am not contesting any of that. My point is that the basis of the suit is that behavior has occurred that has criminal implications. I am well aware of the difference between civil and criminal cases; for one thing, the threshold is much higher in a criminal case, where the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty. In a civil case, the plaintiff only has to prove that the defendant is guilty due to a preponderance of the evidence. That is far easier to prove. For example, OJ Simpson was not convicted of murdering his ex-wife in a criminal court, but he was successfully sued in a wrongful death lawsuit afterward. But my point is that there are allegations of criminal misconduct. Those allegations, if true, might lead to criminal charges somewhere down the line if there is enough evidence to charge them. And if that ends up happening this bankruptcy won’t affect that. That was my entire point from the beginning. Maybe the federal government is already putting a case together? I realize that the AG can’t bring federal charges, and never said that they could. You’re attacking a strong man by repeatedly refuting a statement I never made. I only said that the AG has alleged it. If after all is said and done, the NRA really hasn’t committed any crimes, nothing they could be charged with, then I don’t see what the big deal is. I 100% agree with your statement here: > [@DrDeth](#): > > Using Bankruptcy for restructuring is quite common in the business world, and if the AG of NY is gonna harass them (they think they are, in any case, and certainly there is a political motive) then why not move to Texas? I think we are pretty much in agreement but we’ve been talking past each other, unfortunately. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/48 "2021-01-17T09:10:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Depends. Is GOA actually influential? They’re pretty influential in [white supremacist gun owner circles](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/larry-pratt). Thanks to her recent attempt to get Pelosi killed, many people have heard of Lauren Boebert. She was previously most famous for multiple arrests and marrying a man who thought showing teenage girls his penis was a good idea. Yeah, [GOA endorsed her](https://coloradotimesrecorder.com/2020/09/boebert-accepting-endorsement-of-conspiracist-group-gun-owners-of-america-at-pueblo-event/29871/). Remember the mass murder in the Aurora, CO movie theater? The leader of the GOA [thought it was a false flag operation](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/right-wing-gun-group-aurora-was-inside-job/). And, of course they think poor little Kyle Rittenhouse was [acting in self defense](https://gunowners.org/goa-media-demonizes-apparent-self-defender-kyle-rittenhouse/) and are raising money for his defense. Oh, and remember “English First”? Yeah, the long-time head of the GOA was the founder. Larry Pratt is smart enough to appear moderate when necessary, but we’ll just say [he hangs around with a lot of less than savory types](https://www.npr.org/2020/10/12/923143195/the-original-no-compromisers). But hey, at least **pkbites** is quite a [fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/43) and a member. They have that going for them. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/49 "2021-01-17T15:50:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They would be gone in NY, but be a Texas corp instead. Right, the moves (relocation/bankruptcy) are to forestall the part about _dissolution_ of “NRA” as a corporate entity, and to keep Team LaPierre in control of its assets. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/50 "2021-01-17T16:38:20Z")
Given that Wayne LaPierre is in part responsible for the financial issues, perhaps the best thing for the organization would be for him to be forced out. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/51 "2021-01-17T17:08:08Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Given that Wayne LaPierre is in part responsible for the financial issues, perhaps the best thing for the organization would be for him to be forced out You’ll have to pry those stolen millions out of Wayne’s cold, dead… well, you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/52 "2021-01-17T19:28:48Z")
I can agree with that, and i do feel that the leadership are a bunch of degenerate conmen. Not to mention the NRA has gone well off the rails of what it used to stand for. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/53 "2021-01-17T19:32:49Z")
So are you willing to concede that, perhaps, Letitia James’s concerns were valid? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/54 "2021-01-17T19:43:32Z")
Concede? No, since I have stated that. But just because a couple of the leaders of the NRA are scum, that doesnt mean you get to dissolve a 5 million member 150 year old org due to a couple bad actors and the fact that you, personally promised to take down the NRA as part of your election platform. What disturbs me is that the only action she has taken is trying to dissolve the NRA, which has no legal precedent (yes, a few bogus NP orgs have been taken down, but they were new, organized to be fraud, were always fraud and nothing but fraud all the way down) instead of bring _criminal_ fraud charges against those bad actors. I dont like what the NRA has become, but she has gone too far. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/55 "2021-01-17T19:50:22Z")
I would assume that they filed taxes in NY as well, and that as part of filing NY taxes, their federal tax returns would have been included in the filing, in which case the NY State Department of Revenue would have those Federal returns and the AG of a State getting State tax returns, that includes your Federal filings, is not a huge deal. So the AG of NY would have evidence, just no jurisdiction to pursue federal tax fraud. But could pursue NY State tax fraud if she desired. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/56 "2021-01-17T20:00:05Z")
Sure, but she isnt. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/57 "2021-01-17T20:48:22Z")
Sure, it does create a question of how come the most visible action has been the corporate dissolution suit, rather than suits and/or charges to go directlyafter those who may have been specifically responsible for any irregularities or illegal acts. On that… > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Given that Wayne LaPierre is in part responsible for the financial issues, perhaps the best thing for the organization would be for him to be forced out. Up until now nothing seems to have worked for that. To the contrary what has happened is that those in the leadership who would push back have been the ones forced out or have given up on it and left. So James may have been angling for that threatening the corporation’s own continued existence would finally force an uprising to throw LaPierre & Co. under the bus. Instead it’s obvious they are in firm control and will act to preserve themselves. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/58 "2021-01-17T21:06:16Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Up until now nothing seems to have worked for that. To the contrary what has happened is that those in the leadership who would push back have been the ones forced out or have given up on it and left. So James may have been angling for that threatening the corporation’s own continued existence would finally force an uprising to throw LaPierre & Co. under the bus. Instead it’s obvious they are in firm control and will act to preserve themselves. Her argument for seeking dissolution was that the organization itself has been so thoroughly corrupted that removing LaPierre, or removing a handful of top officers, will be insufficient to reform it. Her lawsuit attempts to lay out how the Board circled the wagons to push out any dissidents who threatened to expose the corruption. At that point, you’re talking about removing the entire leadership cadre, the entire board, and whichever members of staff participated, and who does that leave? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/59 "2021-01-17T23:29:51Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > At that point, you’re talking about removing the entire leadership cadre, the entire board, and whichever members of staff participated, and who does that leave? Five million members. And some more news: > **[Major NRA donor to challenge gun group's bankruptcy over alleged fraud](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/16/nra-donor-bankruptcy-dave-dellaquila-wayne-lapierre)** > > Complaint could stop top NRA executives from discharging a substantial portion of the organisation’s debts _A major donor to the National Rifle Association is poised to challenge key aspects of [the gun group’s bankruptcy filing](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/15/nra-files-bankruptcy-incorporate-texas-new-york), in an attempt to hold executives accountable for allegedly having defrauded their members of millions of dollars to support their own lavish lifestyles._ _[Dave Dell’Aquila](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/08/david-dellaquila-nra-wayne-lapierre-interview), a former tech company boss who has donated more than $100,000 to the NRA, told the Guardian on Saturday he was preparing to lodge a complaint in US bankruptcy court in Dallas, Texas. If successful, it could stop top NRA executives discharging a substantial portion of the organisation’s debts. It could also stop Wayne LaPierre, the NRA’s controversial longtime chief executive, avoiding ongoing lawsuits that allege he defrauded the pro-gun group’s members to pay for luxury travel to the Bahamas and Europe and high-end Zegna suits._ ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/60 "2021-01-18T00:36:16Z")
Probably good news. But they are declaring bankruptcy largely to avoid penalties in New York. Moving to Texas. Not like they won’t be around, possibly with a more honest executive board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635.md?page=4)