# Rip NRA? :D **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 15, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635 "2021-01-15T22:58:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/161 "2023-05-08T13:38:14Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > You don’t get it because you can’t think outside of your leftist box. I don’t get what he said because he brought zero facts or reasoning, just bizarre insulting screeds that he apparently cut-and-pasted from elsewhere. You at least brought some facts & figures. Sadly, they’re not super-relevant to what I was saying, which is that a clear, sometimes overwhelming, majority of people want certain laws, and a tiny minority of people, including you, are blocking them. It’s a tyranny of the extreme gun lobby. Your views are far outside the mainstream, but you inflict them on the rest of us, based on an interpretation of the second amendment so flawed that your own interpretation essentially nullifies the amendment, by ignoring half of its text. > [@pkbites](#): > > Under what authority does a state have to tell private institutions they cannot allow arms into/onto their private property? What a silly question: the authority of the state to regulate business. Surely you didn’t need to ask that. > [@pkbites](#): > > Pertaining to churches it is also a violation of the First Amendment. No it isn’t. Religious institutions can be regulated as long as the regulations aren’t unduly burdensome and aren’t singling out religion for poor treatment. Treating them the same as other locations is religion-blind and has traditionally been allowed. I’ll concede that our extremist right-wing supreme court has been busy dismantling protections for the public and twisting the Constitution into unrecognizeable shapes that support the tyranny of the extreme minority. So my understanding of the Constitution isn’t currently in effect. We have Harlan Crow et al to thank for that. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/162 "2023-05-08T17:37:41Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > After Bruen states like New York passed draconian laws where citizens with CCW licenses could bear their arms. Certain areas of the city, certain businesses, banks, churches. Banks and churches are private institutions, under what authority does a state have to tell private institutions they cannot allow arms into/onto their private property? This is a huge infringement. Taking the word infringement literally, making the prospective gun owner wait until some specified minimum age, to buy a gun they wish to keep and bear, is another huge infringement. Now, infants, AKA those under 21, had no eighteenth century standing to sue for violations of rights. So I don’t seriously say the second amendment applies to them. But it does if you take the word infringement out of the historical context. If you really look at original intent, it only had to do with militias. The states refusing to ratify the Constitution unless there was a Bill of Rights were worrying about a tyrannical standing army, not concealed carry. Bad Supreme Court decisions based on historical ignorance won’t change this. The founders were elitist enough that the May-issue system in New York, pre-Brunen, where a police officer could discuss with you why you need a gun before approving (or, less likely, disapproving) a permit, was more in their way of their way of thinking. We perhaps agree that what was struck down is better, or at least less-bad, than what NY is trying to replace it with. Consider: > **[The Supreme Court’s Faux ‘Originalism’](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/26/conservative-supreme-court-gun-control-00042417)** > > The conservative Supreme Court's favorite judicial philosophy requires a very, very firm grasp of history — one that none of the justices seem to possess. > [@](#): > > James Madison, the author of the Bill of Rights, twice introduced state legislation in Virginia that would impose penalties on any individual who “bear[s] a gun out of his inclosed ground, unless whilst performing military duty.” > > You read that right. The author of the Second Amendment drafted statewide legislation that was effectively a forerunner to the New York state law that the Supreme Court just struck down. The bill, which was really aimed at regulating deer hunting, did not pass. But it clearly demonstrated that Madison viewed individual gun ownership as well within the state’s regulatory prerogative. Want to argue over guns and crime? Gun control cities like Honolulu and Boston and NYC have low homicide, and I believe suicide, but I admit to counter examples (El Paso). So there is a lot to debate, but I think it more intellectually honest to drop the second amendment bit. The invocation of the constitution often is like an appeal to a secular Bible. And like the Bible, it is routinely wretched out of context. As here, since the 2nd amendment was an endorsement of the value of militias. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/163 "2023-05-08T20:41:27Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Now, infants, AKA those under 21, had no eighteenth century standing to sue for violations of rights. Why not? They may not have been able to instruct counsel personally, but the law allowed for an adult to sue on their behalf. Are you saying that a 20 year old living on his own in 1795 would not have had any recourse if agents of the federal government searched his dwelling place without a warrant? That he wouldn’t have been able to cite the 4th Amendment? > **[Next friend](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_friend)** > > In common law, a next friend (Law French prochein ami) is a person who represents another person who is under age, or, because of disability or otherwise, is unable to maintain a suit on his or her own behalf and who does not have a legal guardian. They may also be known as a litigation friend, a guardian ad litem, or a litigation guardian. When a relative who is next of kin acts as a next friend for a person, that person is sometimes instead described as the "natural guardian" of the pers This ... ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/164 "2023-05-09T04:28:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What a silly question: the authority of the state to regulate business. Surely you didn’t need to ask that. Except the state has specifically chosen 2 types of “businesses” that they cannot even define as “sensitive places”. it’s somewhat akin to a bill of attainder. By your standard the state could rule that no business could allow arms in, nullifying the courts decision that citizens have the right to bear arms in public. Just be honest. States like New York are thumbing their nose at a settled SCOTUS decision. The court ruled citizens have the right to bear arms in public and the state is doing everything to neuter that right with rules and regulations that will only affect those that obey rules and regulations. SCOTUS needs to grow a pair and rule these restrictions unlawful instead of waiting for recent challenges of those new restrictions to go through the courts. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/165 "2023-05-09T04:33:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In fact, it’s the exact opposite. Gun control measures that are supported by overwhelming majorities of Americans are repeatedly blocked by a tiny minority of single-issue voters whose deserved irrelevance is twisted into outsized political power by the support of a huge and well-funded industry lobby. The entire purpose of constitutional rights is to protect the minority from the majority. Your favortism of mob rule is concerning. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/166 "2023-05-09T04:35:26Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > SCOTUS needs to grow a pair and rule these restrictions unlawful instead of waiting for recent challenges of those new restrictions to go through the courts. The Supreme Court is an appellate court and literally cannot rule on the Constitutionality of laws until a challenge is brought before them. Your grasp upon legal practice is even more tenuous than your sense of civil ethics. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/167 "2023-05-09T04:39:05Z")
No, they have already made a ruling. That ruling needs to be enforced and they have the power to have the ruling as ruled be enforced. By your standard every SCOTUS ruling could be ignored and nulified during an endless maze of appeals to the ignoring of the ruling. So much for being a nation of laws. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/168 "2023-05-09T04:42:31Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So much for being a nation of laws. I’ll take guidance on the law from someone whose avatar is Yosemite Sam like I’ll accept a complementary trepanation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/169 "2023-05-09T10:45:51Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Your favortism of mob rule is concerning. Your equation of democracy to mob rule is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/170 "2023-05-09T11:38:19Z")
It’s exactly what democracy becomes sometimes. It is why our founders wisely established a republican form of government and created a constitution as the foundation of law and not the political whims of the masses. You don’t agree because you are aligned with what you classify as the majority. Our structure is not always one of majority rule, thankfully. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/171 "2023-05-09T12:50:32Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > tenuous than your sense of civil ethics. **Modding** : Remember, attack the post and not the poster. This last part is pushing it. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/172 "2023-05-09T12:56:13Z")
Only rich people can file for bankruptcy while they are still rich and remain rich when it is all over with. So, I don’t put a lot of stock in bankruptcy as a measuring stick for the financial health of corporate entities. Exhibit A: Donald Trump ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/173 "2023-05-09T13:01:27Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The entire purpose of constitutional rights is to protect the minority from the majority. Your favoritism of mob rule is concerning. Yes, the age old mantra of elitist rule: “You commoners are ignorant and are a complete disaster when governing yourselves. Only WE know what’s best for you, so WE, the elite minority, can decide what is good for you.” Keep in mind that many of the elite who structured that idea into the American way of governing owned slaves and had indentured servants. They exploited the poor, weak and powerless. No thanks! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/174 "2023-05-09T13:09:09Z")
**Modding** : This sounds like a good subject for its own thread. But no more of it here. * * * * * * To all, please pull this back to the NRA. This thread is close to closure for severe drift and being more trouble than it is worth. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/175 "2023-05-09T13:10:25Z")
You’re right. Sorry! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/176 "2023-05-09T13:21:17Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It’s exactly what democracy becomes sometimes. First, no it’s not; that’s an inaccurate description of the pitfalls of democracy. Second, listen to yourself. You’re suggesting that when the overwhelming majority of people want to put regulations on guns in accordance with the first clause in the second amendment, that’s “mob rule” against the tiny number of people who don’t want those regulations----led by an industry group trying to maximize its profits. It’s obscene. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/177 "2023-05-09T14:01:13Z")
> **As not about the NRA, hidden by What Exit?, Modnote apparently missed!** > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > The court ruled citizens have the right to bear arms in public and the state is doing everything to neuter that right with rules and regulations that will only affect those that obey rules and regulations. > > New York had a good system that made it one of the safest states when it comes to gun deaths (I don’t limit to homicide becuase of being almost as strongly against practically all suicides). Calm citizens, with reasonable self-advocacy skill, could get firearms, but the application and interview process took a month or two. This prevented impulsive gun buys for suicides and crimes of passion. Now NY is trying to find a way to avoid the kind of violent death stats typically seen in states with weak gun regulations. It’s difficult for them, and I sympathize. I wish my own legislature cared that much about human life. > > While their new approach is imperfect, NY isn’t necessarily thumbing their nose with the checkerboard approach to where guns are allowed. I find it similar to what the Supreme Court does by disallowing guns on their own grounds. > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > SCOTUS needs to grow a pair and rule these restrictions unlawful instead of waiting for recent challenges of those new restrictions to go through the courts. > > If anyone here accuses you of conservatism, I’m going to say – Not Guilty! ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/178 "2023-05-09T14:18:53Z")
> [@](#): > > If anyone here accuses you of conservatism, I’m going to say – Not Guilty! Too late to edit out, but I apologize for this possible/probable snark in my last post. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/179 "2023-05-09T17:49:21Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The entire purpose of constitutional rights is to protect the minority from the majority. Your favortism of mob rule is concerning. One thought I have frequently had for the past two years is the irony of the fact that the framers of the Constitution were so afraid of the tyranny of the majority that we are now living under the tyranny of the (very loud) minority. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635/180 "2023-05-09T18:37:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Even if the NRA were dissolved today, that would hardly be the end of “the gun lobby”. Other organizations like Gun Owners of America would step up to the plate, because gun owners are of necessity militantly organized. This is not true, as only a very small % of gun owners belong to the NRA. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Gun control measures that are supported by overwhelming majorities of Americans are repeatedly blocked by a tiny minority of single-issue voters… Such as? Cite? Yes, there is quite a bit of support for moderate gun control, of the sort that Biden recently pushed thru Congress. The NRA fights some of those reasonable laws, but not all, AFAIK. I do not care for the NRA, but I also do not care for crazy out and out gun ban laws, such as were attempted in DC, Chicago and San Francisco. Moderation, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rip-nra-d/930635.md?page=10)