# RNC: McCain's speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353 "2004-08-31T02:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/61 "2004-08-31T15:45:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To continue saying _now_ that Iraq was a “grave threat” is simply dishonest. Are you calling Kerry dishonest? He stated that, knowing what he knows now, he would still vote to authorize force in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/62 "2004-08-31T15:47:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Do you have a cite that Fox covered the Democrats any less than CNN or MSNBC? Sorry, but that’s completely irrelevant. What needs to be compared is Fox’s coverage of the RNC v. the DNC. You can then compare the time differential of CNN’s coverage of the RNC v. the DNC after that. I can guaran-damn-tee you that CNN’s coverage is much more fair and balanced in respect to the amount of time showing both actual conventions (rather than commentary, etc.) than FoxNews. As for my impressions on the speeches, I have just a few. I didn’t watch in earnest, as I was flipping between channels. But every time I flipped to the RNC during Guilliani’s speech, he was mentioning Kerry. I thought that unfortunate, because of the 12 major speakers at the DNC, Bush’s name was mentioned a total of three times (once by Ted Kennedy, which was an attack; twice by Kerry, (a) mentioning Bush’s uniting voice on 9/11 and (b) asking him to run a fair and optimistic campaign). ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/63 "2004-08-31T15:54:56Z")
Yeah, **Lib** , but it has already been shown that the intelligence that (supposedly) led us into war was faulty. Why not be honest and stop calling Iraq things that we now know isn’t the case? Back in 2002, Bush and others could get away with calling Iraq a big scary imminent threat, because they could always point to the intelligence that (supposedly) supported that judgement call. But in the year 2004, when we know that that intelligence was tainted with falsity and without one WMD or WMD factory to hang our hat on, it is disingenous to paint Iraq as being the same “grave threat” that we thought it was back in 2002. That was what McCain kept doing. One minute the war in Iraq is all about protecting America from the Threat of Terrah. The next minute it is all about how we went in to liberate and democratize an oppressed people. I’d prefer if the Repubs just base their case for war on the liberation aspect, and leave the “protecting America” bit out of it. Liberation is more justifable. No one disputes that Saddam was a murderous dictator. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/64 "2004-08-31T15:55:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Lib** , none of those quotations alters the fact that we now _know_, without qualification, that Iraq was _not_ a threat to the US. To say before the invasion that Iraq was a threat was an exaggeration and a mistake (largely driven by political pressures to go along with the administration and to pander to the public’s post-9/11 bloodthirst). To continue saying _now_ that Iraq was a “grave threat” is simply dishonest. I agree with you there. I still don’t understand how Congress has wiggled out of all responsibility for this inasmuch as they have Constitutional oversight authority with respect to every one of the agencies that fed all of us the original bill of goods. I haven’t heard any Senator, including Hillary or Kerry, say that they do not now perceive that Iraq was then a threat. What I’ve heard them say is that they regret voting to give Bush the authority (Hillary) or regret that Bush handled the authority so poorly (Kerry). Bush got away with murder, but Congress was the DA. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/65 "2004-08-31T16:03:49Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Sorry, but that’s completely irrelevant. What needs to be compared is Fox’s coverage of the RNC v. the DNC. You can then compare the time differential of CNN’s coverage of the RNC v. the DNC after that. I can guaran-damn-tee you that CNN’s coverage is much more fair and balanced in respect to the amount of time showing both actual conventions (rather than commentary, etc.) than FoxNews. You can guarantee it? So, let’s see the data then. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/66 "2004-08-31T16:13:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You can guarantee it? So, let’s see the data then. Fox News is already behind. They didn’t show the DNC prime time, and they’ve already aired 3 hours of primetime RNC. CNN has shown both. I’m digging up links and will repost, but I think it’s fair to say that FoxNews is showing more RNC than it did DNC, and CNN is showing equal amounts. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/67 "2004-08-31T16:18:06Z")
Retraction. The Yahoo listing I have for last night’s FoxNews doesn’t show convention coverage, yet several posters here have said they watched the convention on FoxNews. Did Fox just cut to the speeches when they were in progress, or is my listing incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/68 "2004-08-31T16:18:46Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Are you calling Kerry dishonest? He stated that, knowing what he knows now, he would still vote to authorize force in Iraq. I hate to be pedantic but he didn’t vote to authorize force in Iraq. He voted to give Bush the _authority_ to use force which is a step removed from actually voting for an invasion. I still think his vote was wrong, and that the majority of Democrats were wrong, to give Bush that authority (and I criticized the Dems at the time) but it’s not quite the same as voting for the war. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/69 "2004-08-31T16:21:14Z")
**Munch** : If you can demonstrate that FOX showed more DNC than RNC before the RNC is even half over, you’ve got one hell of a crystal ball. 🙂 I watched quite a bit of the DNC “prime time” on FOX, so I’m not sure how you’re using that term when you say they didn’t cover it. Let’s see how this plays out at the end of the week when we can add up all the hours. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/70 "2004-08-31T16:26:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I hate to be pedantic but he didn’t vote to authorize force in Iraq. He voted to give Bush the _authority_ to use force which is a step removed from actually voting for an invasion. > > I still think his vote was wrong, and that the majority of Democrats were wrong, to give Bush that authority (and I criticized the Dems at the time) but it’s not quite the same as voting for the war. We don’t need to be pendantic on this issue. Kerry flat out stated that he would vote for the authorization again even if he knew everything he knows now. I, for one, don’t believe that for a minute. He’s just too chicken-shit to come out and say that he thinks the war was a mistake. You can all give him a pass on that if we want, but it disturbs me much more than anything McCain or Giulliani said last night. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/71 "2004-08-31T16:30:07Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > **Munch** : If you can demonstrate that FOX showed more DNC than RNC before the RNC is even half over, you’ve got one hell of a crystal ball. 🙂 I watched quite a bit of the DNC “prime time” on FOX, so I’m not sure how you’re using that term when you say they didn’t cover it. I think there’s a disconnect here. FoxNews certainly covered the DNC. They had correspondents there, they reaired sound bites, etc. But what they did not do was air entire speeches (and I’m saying that from flipping to FoxNews during the DNC’s speeches - I’m not sure where to look for proof, however). But I’m not saying that FOX showed more DNC that RNC - I’m saying the exact opposite. I’m saying that FOX broadcasted the DNC live just as much as Nickelodeon and E! did - zero. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/72 "2004-08-31T16:32:35Z")
Tonight could be interesting, when Paige speaks. Who? **'luce** , you hopeless wonk, who the bleeding Hell is Paige? Well, you see, its all about No Child Left Behind. Its all about how the “Houston Miracle” was touted as totally proving that there is a wonderful magic bullett to fix our school dropout problem, and the Prez has got it! Its not the parents fault, it ain’t poverty, it ain’t racism, its not underfunding schools in lower income areas and pouring money into the suburbs…its the teacher’s fault! They have to be held accountable! (The trial lawyers are in there too, but they haven’t figured out exactly how…but they will…) Now, if you pay attention, or watch _60 Minutes_, you will be aware that the statistical basis for the "Houston Miracle " (that alleges that the dropout rate for poor Houston schools literally vanished, dropped to zilch) was based on totally cooked numbers. Lies, in other words. Utter bullshit, to coin a phrase. Paige was vaulted from his position in Houston to Education Sec. based entirely on his unswerving loyalty to the Prez program, and his perfect willingness to knife the teachers. And, of course, the stunning statistics of the “Houston Miracle”. Did I mention that its all based on lies? Good. Got some 'splainin to do. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/73 "2004-08-31T17:01:24Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I thought McCain damned with faint praise. The fact that they got Guiliani to try to sell the ever-so craven “voted for the war before he voted against it” crap just a few minutes after McCain had called for the parties not to treat each other as enemies really made me lose respect for McCain. The Republicans are not seriously trying to attack Kerry’s record so much as they are merely attacking his sequence of events. Avoiding the issues entirely while only going after the contextless deeds. It’s getting awfully painfully obvious that they seriously fear being drawn into an actual policy debate on Iraq or the war on terror. And from everything they say about how stopping fighting terror would be bad “wink wink” you’d think that Dennis Kucinich had won the Democratic primary. News flash: that guy lost. I’ve thought for a long time that McCain has had a very difficult time finding something positive to say about GWB that won’t keep him awake at night regretting it. So his speeches tend to say things like “his part is really straight”, rather than having any substance. He has to support the party, and has made the (reluctant, in my opinion) decision to support Bush, but I don’t believe he’s any too happy about it. Giuliani has made the most out of 9/11, salvaging a dismal mayoral tenure by reacting well to the disaster. This to the point of having people chanting “Rudy, Rudy, Rudy!”, instead of “Get a rope!” His comment about Bush and god and 9/11 would seem to be evidence of some sort of psychotic break with reality. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/74 "2004-08-31T18:12:21Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > FoxNews certainly covered the DNC. They had correspondents there, they reaired sound bites, etc. But what they did not do was air entire speeches (and I’m saying that from flipping to FoxNews during the DNC’s speeches - I’m not sure where to look for proof, however). Interesting. Do you have a cite for this…because you see I watched the entire DNC, and saw several of the speeches on Fox, including Clintons, Obama’s and Kerry’s…and they weren’t ‘sound bites’, but the entire speech WITH commentary. I was certainly flipping back and forth between CNN, NBC and Fox. However if you have some proof that I dreamed the whole thing I’d appreciate it. If last night was an indication their coverage of the RNC seems to be on par with their coverage of the DNC. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/75 "2004-08-31T18:23:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Interesting. Do you have a cite for this…because you see I watched the entire DNC, and saw several of the speeches on Fox, including Clintons, Obama’s and Kerry’s…and they weren’t ‘sound bites’, but the entire speech WITH commentary. I was certainly flipping back and forth between CNN, NBC and Fox. However if you have some proof that I dreamed the whole thing I’d appreciate it. > > If last night was an indication their coverage of the RNC seems to be on par with their coverage of the DNC. Maybe you’d like to read the text of my post that you quoted, where I said I don’t have a cite. But you are providing me with good info that FOX (I’m assuming you mean FoxNews, and not Fox, right?) did air the RNC last night - it doesn’t seem to appear on the listing I have. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/76 "2004-08-31T18:34:09Z")
[http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/04/07/29/ae\_balta001.cfm](http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/04/07/29/ae_balta001.cfm) > [@](#): > > I set out this week to provide a fair and balanced look at the coverage of the Democratic National Convention, as brought to us by CNN and Fox News. > > \ > > CNN Monday night was pretty ho-hum. Al Gore spoke, conservative and liberal analysts talked about it. Jimmy Carter spoke, conservative and liberal analysts talked about it. > > \ > > So you can imagine my surprise when I popped in a tape of Fox News’ “coverage” from Monday night. > > It wasn’t there. > > I mean, they were there at the FleetCenter in Boston. They had cameras there. They had reporters there. They had signs there. They even had the all-important Democratic National Convention logo on the screen. > > **But the coverage wasn’t there.** > > Fox’s primetime bulldog Bill O’Reilly laid out the plan early on. As his show began, Gore was preparing to take the stage. > > “ **We might listen in for a minute or so** ,” O’Reilly said. “ **But we’re trying to stay away from partisan speech in both conventions this year**.” > [bolding mine] **xtisme** , care to amend your statement on which network you watched the DNC? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/77 "2004-08-31T18:41:07Z")
I’m really amazed at the level of cognitive dissonance exhibited in this thread over McCain. Look, the guy supports Bush and you’re just kidding yourself if you think he’s some closet Democrat. The key is Iraq, which has to be the single most divisive issue between the pro and anti-Bush camps. McCain has been one of Bush’s strongest supporters wrt the invasion of Iraq. No ifs ands or buts about it. Sure, McCain would have made some tactical changes if he had been in charge, but who wouldn’t have? There seems to be this strange inability in much of the anti-Bush camp to believe that anyone with a lick of sense could support Bush. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/78 "2004-08-31T18:52:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m really amazed at the level of cognitive dissonance exhibited in this thread over McCain… Number one threat to the Republic! (Good point! I’ll send you some brochures…) > [@](#): > > …There seems to be this strange inability in much of the anti-Bush camp to believe that anyone with a lick of sense could support Bush. Strange? Strange to you, maybe. Perhaps if you point out to us some of the stunning triumphs achieved in Iraq… ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/79 "2004-08-31T18:53:58Z")
Sorry for the multiple postings. The “Herald Net” article above is close to what I was looking for, but it doesn’t cite any facts or numbers, and relies on some guy’s VHS recording of the conventions. Let’s try [Media Matters for America](http://mediamatters.org/), which is keeping track of FOX’s, CNN’s and MSNBC’s live coverage, minute for minute. So far, it’s exactly what I expected: **FOX Coverage:** DNC, Day 1: 41 minutes RNC, Day 1: 1 hour, 14 minutes Yup, fair and balanced. Additionally (to be fairly and equally critical of the “liberal media”), they point out that CNN allowed GOP Chairman Ed Gillespie a rebuttal after John Kerry’s DNC speech, and former Christian Coalition director Ralph Reed a rebuttal after John Edwards’ DNC speech. Let’s see if CNN follows suit after Cheney and Bush’s speeches. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/80 "2004-08-31T19:04:15Z")
Well, as long as we’re talking fair and unbalanced… Caught by Calpundit, now of _Washington Monthly_… MSNBC’s Question of the Day: Did Rudy Guilianis speech reassure you or move you to support the Bush-Cheney ticket? Reassure Move you to support I am not making this up! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353.md?page=5)