# RNC: McCain's speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353 "2004-08-31T02:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/81 "2004-08-31T19:08:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Number one threat to the Republic! (Good point! I’ll send you some brochures…) No, no, no. I keep telling you that rational ignorance is _the_ number one threat to the republic. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/82 "2004-08-31T19:10:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I am not making this up! Actually, you are: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080261/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080261/) > [@](#): > > Did Rudy Giuliani’s speech move you to support the Bush-Cheney ticket? > > yes no ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/83 "2004-08-31T19:15:16Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Let’s try Media Matters for America, which is keeping track of FOX’s, CNN’s and MSNBC’s live coverage, minute for minute. Hopefully, you won’t mind that I question the fox’s report on the status of the henhouse. From your site: > [@](#): > > Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media. Conservative misinformation is defined as news or commentary presented in the media that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda. One presumes, of course, that it is they who decide what is accurate, reliable, and credible. As well, one wonders at the irony of one agenda monitoring another. I mean, doesn’t one? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/84 "2004-08-31T19:18:50Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Hopefully, you won’t mind that I question the fox’s report on the status of the henhouse. Sure, question away. I’ll go ahead and assume you’ll be posting later with some contrary evidence that shows their facts to not be in order? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/85 "2004-08-31T19:22:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Hopefully, you won’t mind that I question the fox’s report on the status of the henhouse. Yeah, they’re absolutely an anti-Fox organization, but if their methodology is correct, they are presenting objective evidence in this case. As far as I can tell, the time they are reporting is the amount of time speakers are covered. But, as you say, I’d look for a confirming source before taking their numbers at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/86 "2004-08-31T19:23:08Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Sure, question away. I’ll go ahead and assume you’ll be posting later with some contrary evidence that shows their facts to not be in order? But you’ve already given them the status of “facts”. A scientist who conducts an experiment after having already made up his mind as to the veracity of his hypothesis is wasting time. If the experiment contradicts him, he will declare it flawed and unreliable. After all, how can anything contradict what is already true? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/87 "2004-08-31T19:23:12Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Additionally (to be fairly and equally critical of the “liberal media”), they point out that CNN allowed GOP Chairman Ed Gillespie a rebuttal after John Kerry’s DNC speech, and former Christian Coalition director Ralph Reed a rebuttal after John Edwards’ DNC speech. Let’s see if CNN follows suit after Cheney and Bush’s speeches. I remember well those rebuttals. especially Ralph Reed and the 16 NATO countries figure. Lets see if there will be the equivalent this time around for the RNC. Xtisme I’m watching Giuliani’s speech right now… and though I agree most here will criticize according to our “intelectualized” perceptions. Those are our personal opinions. As for how these speeches will resonate with the common man… well they all sound pretty familiar. The same slogans and key words. 9/11 is being milked to the limit too ! We know how they have sucessfully been used before. The speeches are longish and boring… but then so were most of the DNC. Giulani was the low point… attacking Germans releasing a “terrorist” was pretty low. Appeasment rhetoric again was low. My opinion of him is dropping a lot… His “thank god Bush is president” was corny. “With us or with the terrorists” is cheap. Basically he repeated all the “slogans” about Bush and the war on terror. Comparing Bush to Churchill was the final straw though. ``` McCain was more balanced and, though I agree that we shouldn't consider him a closet democrat, it still pains me to see him supporting Bush. His delivery was so so... I would think he would be a bit more "emotional". The public obviously likes him. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/88 "2004-08-31T19:24:45Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Actually, you are: > > [MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080261/) He’s not making it up. They changed the wording. [http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week\_2004\_08\_29.php#003381](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_08_29.php#003381) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/89 "2004-08-31T19:27:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Yeah, they’re absolutely an anti-Fox organization, but if their methodology is correct, they are presenting objective evidence in this case. As far as I can tell, the time they are reporting is the amount of time speakers are covered. But, as you say, I’d look for a confirming source before taking their numbers at face value. I just get nervous when someone with such an obvious agenda takes it upon themselves to monitor someone else’s agenda. It’s hard enough to qualify without taking into account the fact that much of Fox’s primetime programming is devoted to issue-oriented talking head shows. Even during 9/11 coverage, at 8:00 we heard from Piss Face and at 9:00 we heard from Horny and Combover. That’s just what they do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/90 "2004-08-31T19:36:50Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Actually, you are: Well, of course they took it down and modified it. You can find the story over at Kevin Drum’s _Washington Monthly_ site > **[Washington Monthly Magazine](https://washingtonmonthly.com/)** > > We’re an independent voice, listened to by insiders and willing to take on sacred cows—liberal and conservative. My seconds will call on you in the morning, sir or madam, expecting to receive your abject apology. Written in blood would be a nice touch. A videotape of you committing _seppuku_ will also be acceptable… ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/91 "2004-08-31T19:36:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But you’ve already given them the status of “facts”. A scientist who conducts an experiment after having already made up his mind as to the veracity of his hypothesis is wasting time. If the experiment contradicts him, he will declare it flawed and unreliable. After all, how can anything contradict what is already true? :rolleyes: This isn’t science, Lib. It’s grade school addition. If you have evidence that their ideology got in the way of their calculator, show it. Otherwise, your skepticism is unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/92 "2004-08-31T19:41:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My seconds will call on you in the morning, sir or madam, expecting to receive your abject apology. Absolutely. I glossed over the fact that you were reporting a report, so I shoud have said, “He made it up.” But in that moment I hadn’t considered that MSNBC would have fixed it. Looking at the format of that screenshot, it almost looks like there should be something after “Move you to support”, doesn’t it? Maybe they actually were trying to make it a legit poll… Lib: This [Wash. Post article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33806-2004Aug2.html) seems to back up my assertion as well, sans numbers. Of course, if you really were entirely unbelieving of the MMFA numbers, you could verify them yourself during tonight’s Fox News RNC coverage. Otherwise, you could continue to be unfoundly cynical. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/93 "2004-08-31T19:43:30Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > I did not like McCain’s speech. > > He talked too much about how the war in Iraq was a must, that the war was necessary in keeping our security intact. Multiple times he evoked the phrase “grave threat” when talking about Iraq. Um, we’ve been at war for how long now? Where is the evidence that Iraq was a threat, grave or otherwise, to us? Surely it is not because of WMDs. Surely it is not because Bin Laden and Hussein were bedfellows. Surely it is not because Iraqis were responsible for 9/11. Why persists in making Iraq out to be a powderkeg when there is very little evidence to suggest that it was?\*\* I guess he thinks we haven’t been paying attention to the news.\*\* I believe he was just talking to people (in the hall and watching on TV) who **don’t** pay attention to the news. Unfortunately that’s a lot of people and they lap that stuff up. > [@you with the face](#): > > My eyes rolled back into my head when he implied that the “enemies” of 9/11 were the same “enemies” shooting at us in Iraq. In fact, I started yelling at the TV. My respect for him died at that point in his speech, as he proved he would use the same disingenous manuvering that Bush/Cheney have patented. I thought to myself, as the bullshit came a-flowing, “McCain thinks we are idiots. Just like Bush does.” I don’t consider him to be a voice of reason anymore. I can’t respect anyone who sticks up for the Bush camp after what the Bush camp did to him and his wife. > [@you with the face](#): > > It was funny how dead the audience was until attention was drawn to Michael Moore. It looked like Moore just ate it up, too. He was clapping louder than anyone else in the room, with a big Kool Aid grin on his face! I’m surprised he was even admitted, but then again, the Pubs apparently need him to point at and scorn. Moore is writing a daily column for USA Today. He’s allowed to be there just like anyone else with the proper press credentials. Sean Hannity was allowed to roam the floor of the Dem convention, and I didn’t see any Democratic speakers calling him out from the stage and the entire hall erupting in boos. Republicans and Moore himself might laugh the incident off, but I thought it was beyond rude. For the entire convention to loudly boo Moore _to his face_ because he made a _movie_ they don’t like? That’s the real face of the Republican party. Slap a [bandaid with a purple heart](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/30/gop.purple.hearts/) on it and you have an insight into their black souls too. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/94 "2004-08-31T19:46:57Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > :rolleyes: > This isn’t science, Lib. It’s grade school addition. If you have evidence that their ideology got in the way of their calculator, show it. Otherwise, your skepticism is unfounded. At the very least, though, we need to see the delta in coverage by the other networks, too. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if more Americans were interested in hearing McCain, Giulliani, and Schwartzenegger than want to hear Jackson, Sharpton, Gore, and Carter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/95 "2004-08-31T19:49:42Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > We don’t need to be pendantic on this issue. Kerry flat out stated that he would vote for the authorization again even if he knew everything he knows now. I, for one, don’t believe that for a minute. He’s just too chicken-shit to come out and say that he thinks the war was a mistake. You can all give him a pass on that if we want, but it disturbs me much more than anything McCain or Giulliani said last night. Kerry was the target of a pretty hard PR offensive in regards to Bush’s famous question. Bush’s generals earned their pay with that one, that’s for sure. Kerry couldn’t respond with a “no” to the question because his image had already suffered from the “flip-flop campaign”; to answer no would have resulted in Bush & co. trumpeting about the vote Kerry cast for authorizing war and gleefully shouting out the inconsistency. In fact, Bush et al convinced everyone that a grave threat existed, and then reaped the political capital. It would be bad (and inefficient) for Kerry to be forced in a position where he had to explain his decision on the vote and “doing it again”, he was essentially forced to the wall with this one. There must be some damn fine communications agencies working for the Republicans, because from a PR view that was a masterful (if dirty) stroke. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/96 "2004-08-31T19:51:15Z")
> [@SmackFu](#): > > They seem to hope that the moderate love for Guliani and McCain rubs off on Bush. For me, it actually goes the other way. I have less respect for them now. I take that as a very very valid opinion. I just researched your posts in august and I didn’t find on e political comment ! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/97 "2004-08-31T19:56:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > At the very least, though, we need to see the delta in coverage by the other networks, too. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if more Americans were interested in hearing McCain, Giulliani, and Schwartzenegger than want to hear Jackson, Sharpton, Gore, and Carter. 🙂 Oh, absolutely. Unfortunately, it looks like the MMFA site was designed by a chimp. There’s a page that breaks down the amount of coverage CNN and MSNBC gave to various speakers (except each day’s keynote, which is odd - maybe all networks gave 100% to keynoters) for the DNC. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/98 "2004-08-31T20:05:24Z")
I have had enormous respect for Mr. McCain. I could almost stomach his loyalty to men he _knows_ have no dignity, no respect, and are in every way unworthy of his support. But that putrid little bit of shit-ass political theater…the bandaids with a Purple Heart…he watches, he sees, he is silent. He is a whore. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/99 "2004-08-31T20:28:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But that putrid little bit of shit-ass political theater…the bandaids with a Purple Heart…he watches, he sees, he is silent. I missed the speech-- what did he say? I’ve always been surprised that McCain is somehow viewed as being above politics. He certainly breaks with the party line from time to time, but I’ve never seen that he didn’t act like any other politician in pushing his agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353/100 "2004-08-31T20:29:55Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > :rolleyes: > This isn’t science, Lib. It’s grade school addition. If you have evidence that their ideology got in the way of their calculator, show it. Otherwise, your skepticism is unfounded. Grade school addition? I appreciate the, um, concern about my erudition, but I actually was talking about you, not them. See, when I said, “But **you’ve** already given them the status of ‘facts’,” it was a second person, and not a third person subject of the sentence. You know, grade school grammar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rnc-mccains-speech/262353.md?page=6)