# RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 21, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472 "2010-07-21T15:29:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/261 "2010-07-25T21:53:55Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > … I missed the edit window. My above remarks were unnecessarily personal, for which I apologize. I’ve said my piece and elaborated as much as I think is merited. Anyone is welcome to take or leave my opinion as they think it deserves. For what it’s worth, I have no personal grudge against you. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/262 "2010-07-25T22:34:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@leander](#): > > > > If you take the Haaretz article at face value (assuming there weren’t other mitigating circumstances), then why was he not convicted of fraud instead of rape? > > He was convicted of Rape by Fraud. Which, like Statutory Rape, uses “Rape” to mean “Sexual Intercourse Without Consent of One of the Involved Parties” as opposed to the popular meaning of “Rape” as “Beat the \*\*\*\* out of a girl and have your way with her”. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > > [@leander](#): > > > > If you take the Haaretz article at face value (assuming there weren’t other mitigating circumstances), then why was he not convicted of fraud instead of rape? > > Same old same old. he was convicted of rape by deception, which has been clarified numerous times in this thread, over and over and over. > > > [@leander](#): > > > > The only precedent appears to deal with coercion more than deception: > > Why did you post something that you know not to be true and that was, in fact, debunked by your own quote right above it? Another case dealt with, for instance, a man pretending to be a neurosurgeon to make women think he was more desirable than he was. It’s in your own cite. You couldn’t have missed it. > Why is it that you’d post something that your own cite says isn’t true? > > And, of course, the Anti-Stylistic Rigidity Warriors couldn’t be bothered to notice that ‘honest error’ either. Totally unexpected. I think you’ve both missed the point. In the case of the neurosurgeon, the man was convicted of fraud, not rape. As the article points out, the only precedent for “rape by deception” appears to be a case where the victims were coerced into sex with a false offer of free stuff, not simply deceived into sex. In previous cases which involved just deception (like the fake doctor) the charge was fraud, not rape. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/263 "2010-07-26T02:11:15Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > For what it’s worth, I have no personal grudge against you. I was going to spend time refuting all your nonsense, but I think this is fine. Anybody who can read the post you just wrote and figure whether or not it was written by someone with “no personal grudge”. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/264 "2010-07-26T07:38:10Z")
Do you think FinnAgain has me on ignore? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/265 "2010-07-26T09:17:12Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Do you think FinnAgain has me on ignore? Are you suggesting that this is a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/266 "2010-07-26T09:29:32Z")
FinnAgain - I think you’ve done a great job here, of confirming peoples’ shifting suspicions about Israel and many Israeli sympathisers. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/267 "2010-07-26T09:55:35Z")
+1. If I wasn’t already a raging anti-semite, I’d be off to the nearest enlisting station right now. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/268 "2010-07-26T10:20:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@amanset](#): > > > > Do you think FinnAgain has me on ignore? > > Are you suggesting that this is a bad thing? Probably not, but then again whatever I say is probably a lie anyway. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/269 "2010-07-26T10:28:21Z")
You guys are all going to HELL for making fun of a mentally ill person. You should be ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/270 "2010-07-26T13:52:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > He was convicted of Rape by Fraud. Which, like Statutory Rape, uses “Rape” to mean “Sexual Intercourse Without Consent of One of the Involved Parties” as opposed to the popular meaning of “Rape” as “Beat the \*\*\*\* out of a girl and have your way with her”. Well then the “popular meaning” covers only a small percentage of rapes, then. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/271 "2010-07-26T13:56:33Z")
> [@leander](#): > > > [@Maeglin](#): > > > > According to [Haaretz](http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jurists-say-arab-s-rape-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109), he was charged with rape and indecent assault. I am unclear on the details of the definition of indecent assault, but to call it “violent rape” smacks of a certain editorializing. This is indeed how many articles are characterizing it. > > If you take the Haaretz article at face value (assuming there weren’t other mitigating circumstances), then why was he not convicted of fraud instead of rape? > > According to the article: > > > [@](#): > > > > High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a “person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him.” > > > > Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created. > > > > In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud. > > > > One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud > > The only precedent appears to deal with coercion more than deception: > > > [@](#): > > > > In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him. I hate to inject some _actual content_ into this train-wreck … 😃 But in answer to your question: it would appear to be a recent change in the law, set by the 2008 High Court decision. Prior to that there was no such animal as “rape by deception”. In short, based on the exact same facts, in 2007 this fellow would have been charged with “fraud” and in 2010 with “rape by deception”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/272 "2010-07-26T15:10:27Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well then the “popular meaning” covers only a small percentage of rapes, then. Yes. Also, the popular meaning of UFO (Alien Spacecraft ZOMG!!!) is not the actual meaning (Of anything in the sky you can’t identify). There are more examples, but you get the point. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/273 "2010-07-26T17:12:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > > [@FinnAgain](#): > > > > > > You can’t find one single post where I called you an anti-Semite. And you know it. > > > > Of course you call me an anti-Semite. You call half the people who criticize Israel anti-Semite. You may not use the word anti-Semite all the time (or even any of the time) but you are still calling them anti-Semites. > > In other words, you’re a liar. You can’t cite me calling anybody an anti-Semite because you simply made it up. OR it is possible to call someone an anti-semite without using the word anti-semite. I’m not going to dig for examples but you have said things sorta liek this: “You criticize Israel for doing crappy shit but you don’t criticize Hamas when they do even worse things, why is that? Is it because Israel is full of Jews?” You may never use the word anti-semite but the implication is clear. You are calling me an anti-semite. You can obviously add to the conversation. I think you were one of the first people to point out that the commando raid on the maru (while stupid for all sorts of reasons) wasn’t actually illegal. This changed the direction of the conversation. Every time someone called it illegal someone just reposted your link. If instead of doing that, you had simply ranted about bigotry, noone would have listened to a thing you said. Dial it down a little bit. Don’t assume that everyone who criticizes Israel had some sort of agenda. Perhaps we have been misinformed. I learned something about teh formation of israel during that first “conversation” that we had. if you hadn’t started out with calling me ignorant, “disingenuous” or “bigoted” it might have even been a pleasant learning experience. As it turned out, it was like finding out that fetuses can feel pain from a foaming at the mouth pro-lifer. Its something to think about but its hard to think while you’re wiping off flecks of spit from your face. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/274 "2010-07-26T17:19:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > I think the suspicion is that if had been Jewish and married, he would not have been arrested for a philandering one night stand while if he had been Palestinian and single he would have been. > > Partially true. If he was Palestinian and single, the woman may or may not have sued, depending on what exactly pissed her off. If he was Jewish and married-Same thing. But, if she would not have slept with him if he was married and Jewish and she did sue him, he would have gotten convicted too. If he was Palestinian and unmarried, and she sued him, he would once again be convicted. If he claimed he was a giant-squid hunter, and the woman had earlier made a pledge to never sleep with anyone who has not killed at least 5 giant squid, he could very well be convicted again. (Or she would go to a mental assylum). Its tough to prove either way but in this case, judging just from teh stuf that we know so far, it smells fishy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/275 "2010-07-26T17:30:08Z")
> [@leander](#): > > You guys are all going to HELL for making fun of a mentally ill person. You should be ashamed. :EEK: ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/276 "2010-07-26T17:51:12Z")
> [@leander](#): > > You guys are all going to HELL for making fun of a mentally ill person. Please don’t force me to read **Finn Again’s** blog 24/7! Anything but that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/277 "2010-07-26T17:52:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > > > I think the suspicion is that if had been Jewish and married, he would not have been arrested for a philandering one night stand while if he had been Palestinian and single he would have been. > > > > Partially true. If he was Palestinian and single, the woman may or may not have sued, depending on what exactly pissed her off. If he was Jewish and married-Same thing. But, if she would not have slept with him if he was married and Jewish and she did sue him, he would have gotten convicted too. If he was Palestinian and unmarried, and she sued him, he would once again be convicted. If he claimed he was a giant-squid hunter, and the woman had earlier made a pledge to never sleep with anyone who has not killed at least 5 giant squid, he could very well be convicted again. (Or she would go to a mental assylum). > > Its tough to prove either way but in this case, judging just from teh stuf that we know so far, it smells fishy. That’s exactly the issue: the case is “fishy” if you _assume_ that the court etc. are all acting on racist motives, and “not fishy” if you _don’t_ make that assumption. In short, it acts somewhat as a Rorschach inkblot test - one sees in it what one is predisposed to see in it. Once the actual facts are known, it cannot be said that it is, in point of logic, “racist” in and of itself (though of course the judge etc. _may well_ be racist). ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/278 "2010-07-26T21:21:59Z")
I can’t keep up with all the shit in all the pages, but one aspect I think hasn’t been addressed is the extent to which Kashur went to ‘convince’ the woman he was Jewish. According to [this](http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jurists-say-arab-s-rape-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109) (and I’ve seen same quoted words in other articles): _According to Kashur, he was exiting a grocery store in downtown Jerusalem around midday when a woman in her late 20s began to talk to him. "I would say she set upon me. She was interested in my motorcycle and so we talked. **I didn’t pretend. I said my name is Dudu because that’s how everybody knows me**. My wife even calls me that_." \ Is there anything Kashur did beyond telling her his name to make her be convinced of Jewishness (and henceforth fuck-worthy)?? I’ve also seen reports where the name Daniel is the basis for her assumption of Jewish fuck-worthiness - is Dudu approximate interpretation and/or translation for Daniel in language of Israel? I honestly have NO idea 😕 Is it simply the name/nickname that had her so gung-ho for the coitus? Is ‘Dudu’, or even Daniel, simply not allowed for anyone other than a Jew (in Israel where crime occurred anyways). I ask this ignorantly because I cannot fathom a person being judged by a name only. Anyone? Honestly, there just _has_ to be more to this. Surely Israel’s courts need more than _that_? Any cites/details/explanation about what ~extent Kashur went to to ‘prove and demonstrate Jewishness deceptively’ to the fucked-over woman? Some regimes have used the yellow ‘stars’ in the past - are names in that category for defining nationality/religion in Israel? (not meaning as an insult or fateful reference) If this was asked/answered previously, truly sorry - the usual ‘_everyone_ hates Israel’ BS admittedly swamped me and had me glossing quickly past lengthy quoted entries that make bulk of thread, it seems. No help in that, ever. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/279 "2010-07-26T21:33:30Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > FinnAgain - I think you’ve done a great job here, of confirming peoples’ shifting suspicions about Israel and many Israeli sympathisers. I do have to thank you and others of your kind for serving as an object lesson. Of course, the claim you just made is the very essence of every form of prejudice and absolute groupthink stupidity. “I saw a person from a group who did X, Y and Z, and now I’m generalizing to the group!” But of course people won’t mind, because it’s the ‘proper’ target. Just like you’ve all been going bonkers over correct accusations of misbehavior (rather than the misbehavior itself, which you couldn’t care less about), as long as that misbehavior directed at the ‘right’ target. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out what would be said if, for instance, someone looked at Ivan, a blatant anti-Semite, and said “Ah-hah! Now you’ve shown us what Palestinians and anti-Israeli people are _really_ about.” We have people complaining about accusations of anti-Semitism that don’t even _exist_. But you feel fine (and draw down not one word of challenge from your fellow travelers) for using the same exact logic. As long as it’s against the ‘right’ sort of target. I couldn’t have pointed out the dynamic quite so clearly without such wonderful object lessons. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OR it is possible to call someone an anti-semite without using the word anti-semite. You invented it and can’t back it up. Not only have I never said you’re an anti-Semite, but I’ve never said anything equivalent to it. Ever. Not once. You’d quote it if I had rather than inventing a quote that has nothing to do with anything I’ve ever said, anywhere, at all. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not going to dig for examples but you have said things sorta liek this: > “You criticize Israel for doing crappy shit but you don’t criticize Hamas when they do even worse things, why is that? Is it because Israel is full of Jews?” No, you are making that up, I’ve never said anything of the sort. Along with the earlier questions I asked you, ask yourself why it is that you can voice patently untrue things like your claims about me calling you an anti-Semite, which never actually happened… but if I do things like point out that the OP used a deliberately inaccurate and inflammatory claim to draw attention to the thread, that’s a grave sin. Again, ask yourself why that is. I’ve been savagely nibbled on for pointing out the facts about what people have said. You’ve been ignored for inventing things about me. If I was (ever so calmly) inventing negative things to ascribe to the anti-Israel crowd, to you think that’d go over any better than when I address the _actual, factual, accurate_ things about the anti-Israel crowd? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think you were one of the first people to point out that the commando raid on the maru (while stupid for all sorts of reasons) wasn’t actually illegal. This changed the direction of the conversation. Every time someone called it illegal someone just reposted your link. If instead of doing that, you had simply ranted about bigotry, noone would have listened to a thing you said. 1. That was GD, this is the Pit. I’m allowed to vent frustration with the non-stop tactics of the board’s small coterie of hardcore anti-Israel posters. That some folks have decided to nibble fiercely on my ankles about it doesn’t really bother me. 2. No, it didn’t really change the direction of the conversation, as people were continually claiming that it was illegal, that it wasn’t allowed in international waters, that it was piracy, etc, etc, etc. _Which is the point_: some who’re part of the anti-Israel crowd will reliably traffic in error and fiction if it bolsters their narrative, and most of their fellow travelers won’t call out others as long as they too are advancing an anti-Israel narrative (e.g. Jimmy Carter). And that, in fact, they’ll swarm angrily if someone does call them out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/280 "2010-07-26T21:36:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > > > > > I think the suspicion is that if had been Jewish and married, he would not have been arrested for a philandering one night stand while if he had been Palestinian and single he would have been. > > > > > > Partially true. If he was Palestinian and single, the woman may or may not have sued, depending on what exactly pissed her off. If he was Jewish and married-Same thing. But, if she would not have slept with him if he was married and Jewish and she did sue him, he would have gotten convicted too. If he was Palestinian and unmarried, and she sued him, he would once again be convicted. If he claimed he was a giant-squid hunter, and the woman had earlier made a pledge to never sleep with anyone who has not killed at least 5 giant squid, he could very well be convicted again. (Or she would go to a mental assylum). > > > > Its tough to prove either way but in this case, judging just from teh stuf that we know so far, it smells fishy. > > That’s exactly the issue: the case is “fishy” if you _assume_ that the court etc. are all acting on racist motives, and “not fishy” if you _don’t_ make that assumption. > > In short, it acts somewhat as a Rorschach inkblot test - one sees in it what one is predisposed to see in it. Once the actual facts are known, it cannot be said that it is, in point of logic, “racist” in and of itself (though of course the judge etc. _may well_ be racist). Then why is it being criticized so heavily inside Israel? Is there actually more recognition of the problems in Israeli society by Israelis than there are by Zionists in Texas? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472.md?page=15)