# RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 21, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472 "2010-07-21T15:29:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/361 "2010-09-08T15:36:50Z")
Well then the plea bargain is bullshit. If he forcibly raped her, he should have been charged with rape. If she wasn’t willing to testify, he shouldn’t have been charged with anything. The “rape by decpetion” plea is complete nonsense with regard to those alleged facts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/362 "2010-09-08T15:48:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well then the plea bargain is bullshit. If he forcibly raped her, he should have been charged with rape. If she wasn’t willing to testify, he shouldn’t have been charged with anything. The “rape by decpetion” plea is complete nonsense with regard to those alleged facts. That’s why it’s a “bargain.” The state gets to convict him on something, and the girl is spared the necessity of the ordeal of testifying (reading the translated article, it seems that Israeli law doesn’t have a “rape shield,” system). And the facts adduced DO fit the charge: he deceived her about his intentions towards her, inasmuch as he did not reveal his intent to forcibly rape her. The mere fact that this particular deception also would support a higher charge doesn’t mean it can’t be the basis for the plea bargain seen here. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/363 "2010-09-08T15:58:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The original charge was forcible rape. The “rape by deception” was a [negotiated plea to spare the victim the trauma](http://www.mideastyouth.com/2010/09/05/israel-rape-by-deception-turns-out-to-be-brutal-rape-of-a-vulnerable-and-abused-woman/) of testifying: > > > [@the victim's account](#): > > > > When they left the elevator on the top floor of the building, according to B., Kashur took her to the stairwell that led to the attic. There, according to her, he raped her. “We took off my pants and underwear”, described B., “and all of this was done with force, I didn’t agree to anything… I was left in just my shirt. Then he took off his clothes… then he put saliva on his penis and then, it was like full penetration, like, it wasn’t with consent as he claims. He laid me on the floor… and asked to kiss my chest too and then like when I asked that he stops and tried to push him away, he started pressuring me with his arms forcefully on me… when I tried to push him with my hand in his stomach, this happened in a more advanced stage, when he was already inside of me, then he said that if I don’t stay silent and I don’t resist, then it would like end faster and it wouldn’t be like, he wouldn’t use force. I still resisted him and it was forced.” Well, that certainly puts a new slant on things. Dunno quite what to make of it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/364 "2010-09-08T16:19:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If she wasn’t willing to testify, he shouldn’t have been charged with anything. Once again, **Diogenes** shoots from the hip. Do murder victims get to testify ? A prosecutor doesn’t need a victim’s consent to testify in court to lay a charge. As far as fairness and legality are concerned, this was a negotiated settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/365 "2010-09-08T16:40:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the facts adduced DO fit the charge: he deceived her about his intentions towards her, inasmuch as he did not reveal his intent to forcibly rape her. The mere fact that this particular deception also would support a higher charge doesn’t mean it can’t be the basis for the plea bargain seen here. I know your tongue had to be in your cheek when you wrote this. You’d have made a great Pharisee. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/366 "2010-09-08T16:44:06Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > If she wasn’t willing to testify, he shouldn’t have been charged with anything. > > Once again, **Diogenes** shoots from the hip. > > Do murder victims get to testify ? > > A prosecutor doesn’t need a victim’s consent to testify in court to lay a charge. > > As far as fairness and legality are concerned, this was a negotiated settlement. The prosecutor needs _evidence_, and if the only evidence is the victim’s testimony, and if the victim doesn’t want to testify, then the prosecutor has nothing to present. If they could have proven the case without the victim’s testimony, they probably would have brought it. Moreover, even if the prosecution doesn’t call the victim as a witness, that doesn’t mean the defense can’t do it. That’s the way it is in the US anyway. Under the US system, the defendant has a right to confront his accuser. Maybe Israel is different. It wasn’t a settlement, by the way, it was a plea bargain. Settlements are for money in civil suits. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/367 "2010-09-08T16:44:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I know your tongue had to be in your cheek when you wrote this. You’d have made a great Pharisee. Are you of the opinion that a plea bargain should not be made generally in cases of forcible rape, or are you merely objecting to the form in which it was made in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/368 "2010-09-08T16:46:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > Once again, **Diogenes** shoots from the hip. > > > > Do murder victims get to testify ? > > > > A prosecutor doesn’t need a victim’s consent to testify in court to lay a charge. > > > > As far as fairness and legality are concerned, this was a negotiated settlement. > > The prosecutor needs _evidence_, and if the only evidence is the victim’s testimoney, and if the victim doesn’t want to testify, then the prosecutor has nothing to present. If they could have brought the ase without the vicim’s testimony, they would have. > > Moreover, even if the prosecution doesn’t call the victim as a witness, that doesn’t mean the defense can’t do it. That’s the way it is in the US anyway. Under the US system, the defendant has a right to confront his accuser. Maybe Israel is different. Huh? It’s a plea bargain. The defence had every right to confront the witness/accuser - all it has to do, is to reject the bargan offered by the prosecution and ask for a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/369 "2010-09-08T16:50:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I know your tongue had to be in your cheek when you wrote this. You’d have made a great Pharisee. > > Are you of the opinion that a plea bargain should not be made generally in cases of forcible rape, or are you merely objecting to the form in which it was made in this case? I object to calling it “rape by deception” if it was forcible rape. I don’t object to the plea bargaining in principle (though I would prefer that rapists be fully charged), but I do think it should be pled down to something that still fits with the facts of what happened. If I steal a car, it wouldn’t make sense to plead to illegal parking. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/370 "2010-09-08T16:53:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The prosecutor needs _evidence_, and if the only evidence is the victim’s testimoney, and if the victim doesn’t want to testify, then the prosecutor has nothing to present. If they could have brought the ase without the vicim’s testimony, they would have. > > > > Moreover, even if the prosecution doesn’t call the victim as a witness, that doesn’t mean the defense can’t do it. That’s the way it is in the US anyway. Under the US system, the defendant has a right to confront his accuser. Maybe Israel is different. > > Huh? It’s a plea bargain. The defence had every right to confront the witness/accuser - all it has to do, is to reject the bargan offered by the prosecution and ask for a trial. I never said the defnse was denied that right. I was only saying that if the prosecution had tried to go to trial without calling the victim, the defense would have called her anyway. If they couldn’t prove the case without the victim’s testimony, and if the victim wasn’t willing to testify, then I don’t see why the defendant pleaded to anything. Bad representation, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/371 "2010-09-08T16:57:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > Are you of the opinion that a plea bargain should not be made generally in cases of forcible rape, or are you merely objecting to the form in which it was made in this case? > > I object to calling it “rape by deception” if it was forcible rape. I don’t object to the plea bargaining in principle (though I would prefer that rapists be fully charged), but I do think it should be pled down to something that still fits with the facts of what happened. If I steal a car, it wouldn’t make sense to plead to illegal parking. A plea bargain is by necessity an agreement to a lesser charge. What real difference does it make to anything what that charge is? I have no idea why they went with the “rape by deception” rather than something else; perhaps because there as nothing else that would suit better, in terms of having a sentencing range that the two sides could live with … but assuming that a plea bargain was desireable, it seems to me to be concentrating on legal technicalities, rather than substance, to worry about the form of the charge. The onlt real difference, I think, is to those who charged off half-cocked about how terrible and racist Israel is, based on incomplete facts. The prosecutor could have saved them the embarassment they ought to be feeling now by choosing something else. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/372 "2010-09-08T16:59:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If they couldn’t prove the case without the victim’s testimony, and if the victim wasn’t willing to testify, then I don’t see why the defendant pleaded to anything. Bad representation, I guess. It’s seldom that black and white. How about, “I don’t want to testify, but if the alternative is that scumbag walking away with no penalty, I will.” This plea gives the accused a conviction and sentence, but avoids the necessity of testimony by the victim. Sure, the accused could have said, “I’m not pleading to this; bring on the trial.” But he risks her actually testifying and his getting convicted for the top count. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/373 "2010-09-08T17:02:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > Huh? It’s a plea bargain. The defence had every right to confront the witness/accuser - all it has to do, is to reject the bargan offered by the prosecution and ask for a trial. > > I never said the defnse was denied that right. I was only saying that if the prosecution had tried to go to trial without calling the victim, the defense would have called her anyway. > > If they couldn’t prove the case without the victim’s testimony, and if the victim wasn’t willing to testify, then I don’t see why the defendant pleaded to anything. Bad representation, I guess. Again, Huh? Every plea bargain is based on a balancing of risks. Obviously, if each side had complete confidence in their case, no plea bargain is ever going to be justified. In this case, the most likely scenario based on the article is that the defense could not be sure that the victim would in fact refuse to testify - and the prosecution could not be sure she _would_. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/374 "2010-09-08T17:03:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I object to calling it “rape by deception” if it was forcible rape. I don’t object to the plea bargaining in principle (though I would prefer that rapists be fully charged), but I do think it should be pled down to something that still fits with the facts of what happened. If I steal a car, it wouldn’t make sense to plead to illegal parking. > > A plea bargain is by necessity an agreement to a lesser charge. What real difference does it make to anything what that charge is? > > I have no idea why they went with the “rape by deception” rather than something else; perhaps because there as nothing else that would suit better, in terms of having a sentencing range that the two sides could live with … but assuming that a plea bargain was desireable, it seems to me to be concentrating on legal technicalities, rather than substance, to worry about the form of the charge. > > The onlt real difference, I think, is to those who charged off half-cocked about how terrible and racist Israel is, based on incomplete facts. The prosecutor could have saved them the embarassment they ought to be feeling now by choosing something else. Why should anyone be feeling embarrassment? We were operating on the facts we were given. My own conclusions based on those facts are still correct. I wasn’t wrong about anything. The scenario appears not be as originally presented, but that’s not my fault. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/375 "2010-09-08T17:03:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I object to calling it “rape by deception” if it was forcible rape. I don’t object to the plea bargaining in principle (though I would prefer that rapists be fully charged), but I do think it should be pled down to something that still fits with the facts of what happened. If I steal a car, it wouldn’t make sense to plead to illegal parking. If I stole a car and parked it illegally, I would cop to illegal parking to avoid further investigation and action by the prosecutor. Remember, some of the facts of the case are reflected in the charge, based on the perp’s admission . There is no misinformation there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/376 "2010-09-08T17:08:01Z")
Where do you see the perp making an admission? As far as I can tell, he was still claiming the sex was consensual. All he’s apparently admitting to is that he gave her a fake name. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/377 "2010-09-08T17:09:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why should anyone be feeling embarrassment? We were operating on the facts we were given. My own conclusions based on those facts are still correct. I wasn’t wrong about anything. The scenario appears not be as originally presented, but that’s not my fault. Because it reveals a willingness to jump to unjustified conclusions? The original facts _required_ jumping to such conclusions for a finding of racism (example: the automatic assumption that, had the ethnicities of the two been reversed, no conviction). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/378 "2010-09-08T17:14:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Where do you see the perp making an admission? As far as I can tell, he was still claiming the sex was consensual. All he’s apparently admitting to is that he gave her a fake name. The fact of agreeing to a plea bargain says something to that. I suppose he could argue that he was afraid of not getting a fair shake in a trial, but generally speaking no-one agrees to a plea bargain unless they are concerned about being convicted of the greater charge. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/379 "2010-09-08T17:17:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@sinical\_brit](#): > > > > Well, what a completely fucked-up thread. > > > > I happen to think this is a really interesting story and would like to debate it. However, I find myself having to trawl through the biggest pile of repetitive shite i have ever had the misfortune to read. > > Anyway - there is an interview with him [here](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/saber-kushour-rape-deception-charge). The article states: > > > > "Kushour speaks fluent, unaccented Hebrew, as do many Palestinians living and working in Jerusalem. The woman asked his name and Kushour replied “Dudu” – a common Israeli name. “Since I was a kid everyone calls me Dudu – even my wife calls me Dudu. It’s a nickname.” **At no point, he says, did the woman – who gave her name as Maya – ask if he was Jewish, although he has acknowledged that he said he was single."** Bolding mine. > > > > If she didnt ask, and he didnt say, how can he be found guilty for something she presumed ? Isnt ‘buyer beware’ valid here ? > > > > Analogy: What if he sold her a car on the Monday. She gets a large cc bill in on the Tuesday and realises she cant afford said car. Can she then ring the police on the Wednesday and cry deception and that she would never have purchased a vehicle off an Arab ? > > This makes it all the less likely that the sigificant lie was about his _ethnicity_. He admits that he lied - about being _single_. > > Remember that there were two lies in issue here: > > (1) that he was Jewish when he wasn’t; and > (2) that he was single when he was married. > > The attention of this thread has all been on lie #1, because the implications of that raise the racism concern. > > However, according to at least one expert cited in the articles upthread, it was lie #2 which proved most decisive - and is the reason that an appeal from the conviction (as opposed to the sentence) may be difficult. > > In short he allegedly lied about being a “Jewish single”. The argument has all been about him lying about being a ' **Jewish** single" whereas it may be the case that it was more significant that he lied about being a “Jewish **single** ”. Then why is the word Jewish in there at all? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/380 "2010-09-08T17:21:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then why is the word Jewish in there at all? Read the last page of this thread - there has been a significant revelation, which makes much of this argument moot. In short, the “rape by deception” was just a lesser charge that was chosen for purposes of a plea-bargain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472.md?page=20)