# RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 21, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472 "2010-07-21T15:29:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/41 "2010-07-22T02:30:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > T > > Even if _this particular woman_ is as racist as a barrel of KKK members, it is her right to choose not to sleep with someone - because she doesn’t like his skin colour or his ancestry or whatever. Nobody said it wasn’t. It still doesn’t make it rape in this case. **FinnAgain** , you have some serious issues. Tell me, how bruised IS your foot nowadays, what with all that knee jerking? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/42 "2010-07-22T02:30:55Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > … the judge’s reasoning is clear and ugly. It is ugly to apply a law as it is written? It has been established that: - the law was not designed with any discriminatory intent, - it has not been applied in a discriminatory manner, its other applications were applied to lies committed by Jews, - that this particular woman has claimed, and is believed when she claims it, that she would not have desired to have sex with this particular man if she did not believe that he was of her faith/ethnicity. Whether or not the law is stupid is immaterial: it is not racist or apartheid. Whether or not this particular woman has anti-Arab prejudices is immaterial: she consented to sex on the basis of a fraudulent representation. The judge’s reasoning is clear and not at all ugly: her job is not to make the law but to rule on it as it written, whether the lie is about working for the government, about being of a profession other than what you are, or about being of a different faith than what you are. **Laudenum** , your untruthful statement was stating that he was “jailed for being Palestinian”; that is **untrue** - he was jailed for _fraudulently representing himself to get sex_ according to the same law that has jailed Jewish Israelis on the same charge. **Dio** makes a bold charge: > [@](#): > > It has not been used against Jews for lying about what race they are to get a Palestinian chick in the sack, nor would it ever be. It should be easy for him to find cases where a Palestinian Israeli woman accused a Jewish Israeli of that and the man was not charged. Otherwise he should stop making shit up. Of course he could really do that and still be **Dio** so nevermind. And by the way, neither Jewish or Palestinian are “races”. And _both_ have plenty of individuals who would decline to have casual sex with someone of the other group. And some I am sure who would find that a turn on. And they each have their right to behave accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/43 "2010-07-22T02:44:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Nobody said it wasn’t. It still doesn’t make it rape in this case. > ? Is it, in fact, “rape by deception” under the laws in question to deceive someone into having sex with you? Why yes, yes it is. That does indeed mean that in this case it’s “rape by deception”. Dio may want to wallow in his standard pig headed idiocy while spouting off with his hate filled anti-Israel bigotry, but at the end of the day (and the start too), Dio’s claims that Israelis are all bad and nobody would prosecute the case if the roles were reversed and Israel is a Jim Crow society (proven by the fact that, well, he really hates them and he uses his hate to prove how bad they are in the hypothetical that he imagined, of course) is just him spewing his hatred and trying to find ways to justify it after the fact. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No one said anything about “all Israelis” Not only a bigot, but a coward to boot. How surprising! Most racists and bigots are so very honest about the source of their pathological hatred. Of course, you simply showed that you’re a bigot and you’re crazed by hatred and you keep claiming that Israeli is a Jim Crow society and that nobody in Israel would bring charges if it was a Muslim woman making the charges, but it’s not like you’re saying anything about Israel or how much you’re bigoted agains tit. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This does not involve deception about race, but about religious authority. Any deception qualifies under the law. Only in your fevered hate-washed mind does it become about “ayieee, Muslims!” The law has been used, several times before, due to _deception used to induce someone to have sexual relations_. That statute is not about race. At all. No, not even if you’re really, really full of hate for those who have a certain national identity. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > NONE of this shit should be illegal, but this doesn’t even involve the kind coercive manipulation that law was designed to prosecute Ah, now you’ve studied Israeli jurisprudence and you can tell us the history of the law and the precedents and… oh, wait, no, you’re just a idiot. Ah well. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > and saying he “lied about his identity” because he gave a fake name to a bar hook up is disingenuous on your part, and you know damn good and well there would be no prosecution if the races were reversed. Dio, just because people aren’t bigots, like you, doesn’t mean that not buying into your rancid hatred is “disingenuous”. Just because you’re a bigot who hates Israelis doesn’t mean that we know, based on nothing other than your bigotry, that the Israeli police wouldn’t investigate and the Israeli judiciary wouldn’t file charges if the fraud wasn’t about tricking someone into having sex by pretending to be Jewish. I know, you’re full to the brim with hatre, but for a moment try to ask yourself how you’d build your “case” about how horrible Israelis are if you had to rely on facts and not the simple matter of you being bigoted against Israel. . ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/44 "2010-07-22T02:47:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Dio** makes a bold charge:It should be easy for him to find cases where a Palestinian Israeli woman accused a Jewish Israeli of that and the man was not charged. Why would that be easy to find? Where would that information be recorded? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/45 "2010-07-22T02:49:19Z")
**Finn** , you have some serious issues, and I’m not going to join you in your crazy. Hope it works out for you, though. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/46 "2010-07-22T02:57:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Is it, in fact, “rape by deception” under the laws in question to deceive someone into having sex with you? Why yes, yes it is. That does indeed mean that in this case it’s “rape by deception”. And said law is, in my view, utterly ridiculous, if not outright unjust. (I can see cases where you have identical twins switching identities, etc). Question – does this law also apply to women? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/47 "2010-07-22T03:08:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Question – does this law also apply to women? It does. As far as I know, it forbids anyone from using deceit to get someone to sleep with you. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/48 "2010-07-22T03:15:17Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > The point is that she gave her consent. Throughout the sex act, consent was maintained. The argument is that she wouldn’t have given her consent had he not deceived her. So he committed fraud on her in order to get her consent. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this is a good law, but I can understand why it exists. You want someone to give informed consent, and to lie to someone so they’ll have sex with you is unethical, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/49 "2010-07-22T03:17:08Z")
So is it fraud if someone lies about being married or says “I love you” if they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/50 "2010-07-22T03:28:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And said law is, in my view, utterly ridiculous There is a difference between “I do not agree with that law” and “an action which is clearly and objectively a specific crime under a specific law doesn’t count because I don’t like the law.” > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why would that be easy to find? Where would that information be recorded? You mean, you just made it up because you’re a bigot so it sounded like a good thing to say, and you can’t prove it so you won’t bother? Surprising! And yes Dio, you’re a bigot who makes stuff up because you can’t think when you let your hate wash over you and start making stuff up because it kinda sounds good to you and fits in with your hatred, and obviously folks who aren’t fine with just making shit up because they’re full of hate must have some real problems! Anybody who isn’t bigoted against the same people you hate simply must be _crazy if they’re not ‘merely’ disingenuous._ Because who but a crazy disingenuous person doesn’t hate the same nationalities you do? Obviously, if someone was properly bigoted and hates the correct nationality, like you, then they’d accept that the hypothetical you made up and certify that the people who are part of the hated national identity would act (hypothetically) as horribly as you imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/51 "2010-07-22T03:33:06Z")
If you can’t answer the question, just say so. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/52 "2010-07-22T03:35:39Z")
I did answer it. You’re a hate filled bigot, you made it up, you can’t provide proof because the only proof you have is that you hate Israelis so the hypothetical you made up sounds good to you. What exactly is confusing you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/53 "2010-07-22T03:40:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What I’m ‘boggling’ about is how you are taking one incident - highly criticized within Israel at that - and, generalizing the hell out of it, claiming it proves Israel is an apathied society. Yeah the naturalization law is highly criticized too. I’m not saying all Israelis are bigots I’m saying the society has institutionalized racism against Palestinians. You don’t think that there were South Africans that criticized apartheid? > [@](#): > > Fact is, I don’t think the ‘rape by deception’ law make sense. and in all likelihood of people like you were writing and enforcing Israel’s laws, I would have no reason to compare it to South Africa. > [@](#): > > Fact is, who people choose to have sex with is still something they are _allowed_ to be “racist” about. A woman (or man) can be totally irrational on this score, and as ‘racist’ as any KKK member _in voluntarily decising to have sex with someone_ - if they don’t like Blacks, or _only_ like Blacks, or Arabs, or Jews, or whomever - that’s their business; and tricking or fooling 'em by pretending to be who you are not is at least ethically repugnant (though as i said, I disagree with it being a matter for criminal law). But it is criminal in Israel and the law is being applied to this particular case. > [@Malthus](#): > > The same law is on the books in many other places, including some US states. And if it enforced in a racist manner then it would be racist. > [@](#): > > What the judge said is that people who lie to get sex are “smooth tounged criminals”. How exactly is that some sort of proof of racism in society? Because: > [@](#): > > What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman. Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not. Perhaps this guy is full of shit but if he is then why is there so much criticism of this case in Israel? > [@](#): > > What a “former Israeli minister official” says has no bearing on what the Judge ordered. Yeah but he has some idea of the purpose and prosecution of the laws in Israel. > [@Malthus](#): > > I do not agree that if a Jewish guy pretended to be an Arab to screw an Arab woman, that an Israeli judge would inevitably find him innocent based on this law (particularly if this precedent survives appeal!) Do you think that the Jewish guy calling himself Omar in a Palestinian bar would have been the first guy that they prosecuted for this sort of thing? > [@](#): > > Fact is, there are many things wrong with Israeli society, but their judiciary often rules in ways that would surprise those who automatically assume Israel is evil. I agree that the high court does its best to be as fair as possible but they can only be as just as the laws they interpret. If the laws allow for institutionalized prejudice then the high court must do so as well. I have nothing but respect for Jewish legal scholarship (not all Jewish legal scholars but the scholarship, it comes from millenia of tradition of thinking about the law and our legal tradition has incorporated much of that). > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Then Damuri, after his admission that he’s a reflexive anti-Israeli bigot (which is my fault, of course) who has to fight not to simply shoehorn any new information into his “I hate Israel!” narrative, spews: When do I admit that I am an anti-Israeli bigot (BTW, when you say anti-Israeli bigot, do you mean anti-semite?)? How am I an anti-Israeli bigot? How am I any more an anti-Israeli bigot than you are a pro-Israeli, anti-Palestinian bigot? I don’t hate Israel, I hate its policies, “hate the sinner, not the sin” and all that. > [@](#): > > Of course, the actual facts are that, in Israel, it’s a crime to get sex by lying about who you are. And do you believe that this law is being enforced blindly (in a “justice is blind” sort of way)? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I get it, you’re a raging anti-Israel bigot and you’re willing to lie and imagine whatever the fuck you want as long as it reinforces your bigotry. Yes!!! Raging anti-Israel bigotry is EVERYWHERE, the only possible reason anyone could possibly criticize Israel is because they are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/54 "2010-07-22T03:44:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It sure is interesting what sort of people these threads almost always bring out. > Yes “The Jews” are all sorts of bad things, preach it! Your arguments made more sense when you used to try to compare Israel’s action with arab actions. Why not compare what is happening to this guy to what would happen to a Jew that conned a muslim girl into having sex by claiming he was muslim. Cuz that would make this guy to jail in this case A-OK ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/55 "2010-07-22T03:53:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **Finn** , you have some serious issues, and I’m not going to join you in your crazy. Yeah, he’s too busy with [his _own_ crazy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=571382&page=2). > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I never thought (pot) caused any impairment at all except perhaps for inexperienced users. I still don’t think it cuases any impairment significant enough to worry about. Pass the bong to my surgeon. I don’t care. Arguing with **Dio** never does any good. While frequently wrong, he’s never in doubt, and will stubbornly hold to the most inane positions rather than concede error in even the minutest degree. > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > Why not compare what is happening to this guy to what would happen to a Jew that conned a muslim girl into having sex by claiming he was muslim. I wondered briefly what would be the prison sentence for a Jewish guy who tried conning a Muslim woman in this fashion in a Muslim nation in the Middle East. The difficult with imaging such a scenario is 1) the virtual absence of Jews in any of these countries due to their having been driven from their homes after 1948, and 2) the likelihood that the “sentence” would be death by stoning for both man and woman. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/56 "2010-07-22T03:57:14Z")
Well, we COULD stick them in a room together. Then the rest of us could just discuss this like adults? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/57 "2010-07-22T04:02:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I did answer it. Where? Where is this information recorded that it’s supposed to be so easy for me to find? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/58 "2010-07-22T04:05:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > wondered briefly what would be the prison sentence for a Jewish guy who tried conning a Muslim woman in this fashion in a Muslim nation in the Middle East. The difficult with imaging such a scenario is 1) the virtual absence of Jews in any of these countries due to their having been driven from their homes after 1948, and 2) the likelihood that the “sentence” would be death by stoning for both man and woman. This is an evasion of the question and the issue. "Yeah, but Muslims are eeeeevil, does not get Israel off the hook for its own Jim Crow practices. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/59 "2010-07-22T04:11:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So is it fraud if someone lies about being married or says “I love you” if they don’t. Under that law, the first would probably be actionable, the second, probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472/60 "2010-07-22T04:17:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is an evasion of the question and the issue. "Yeah, but Muslims are eeeeevil, does not get Israel off the hook for its own Jim Crow practices. This isn’t Jim Crow, though. The law doesn’t specify Palestinians, or even lying about being a Palestinian. It’s about lying to get sex, period. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-palestinian-jailed-for-being-palestinian/547472.md?page=4)